Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:01:03 -1000
From: "LJONES.US.ORACLE.COM"
Subject: H-COST: 15th Century Male Gown
In response to Hannah's post and subsequent others:
I would agree mostly with David, although I have not thought so specifically
about the adjustment of the shoulder seam. I did cut a woman's gown with
similar pleating from 1440 in a similar manner to your drawing, Hannah.
However, I used the tape and tuck method that David refers to in his post, and
found it works quite well. I was researching Burgundian from about 1440-1470
last year, and looked most often into male clothing, although I chose to make
a Burgundian woman's robe for myself. My personal opinion is that securing
pleats to an inner band/tape is the method they used to get very regular
pleats. There are other examples of more casual pleating which can be
accomplished by simple belting, but a belt will NOT keep those perfect pleats
in place at all if they are not permanently secured.
I have used this method in an Italian male "giornea" from the same time period
(1440), although the initial construction/width of the robe was done using
gores. In that example, I felt it was the proper way to recreate the garment
from various Pisanello drawings and related material. However, for the
Burgundian robe, I did not insert regular gores at each interval, but only
added them at the sides for additional width. This was due to the fact that my
material was only 45" wide, and I had to extend that fullness to the floor,
which required more fabric than a shorter gown for a man.
Anyway, securing the pleats is not very hard, but does require a lot of
fiddling. I laid mine out on the floor, and took an estimate of where they
should be, securing the pleats to the tape with pins. The tape was inside the
entire garment (i.e., closest to the body, NOT in between lining and outer
fabric). Since you would be aiming for the very rounded pleats that they
usually showed, the pins need to be on either side of a "bunch" of fabric, so
that IF it were padded, it would be the correct depth. I got a decent amount
of puff from my combination of linens with and interlining of moderate weight
wool, but I was not constructing a court garment. To get that look, you
definitely need heavier fabrics, with interlinings of wool probably.
After doing the initial pinning, you need to try it on someone to see how it
looks. Usually, the pleats need to be adjusted, as the first try does not
provide even spacing or size, especially since you are securing on the inside,
but need it look correct from the outside. Try to get the angle correct, as
they did not go vertically, but rather in and out from the waist. USE LARGE
PINS that won't come out. Very frustrating to keep redoing this due to pins
falling out! I used grosgrain ribbon (about 1 3/8" I think), but of course
this is not period. It just happens to be very sturdy and won't stretch.
Once you have a good spacing, angle and size of pleats, you can sew them to
the band by hand. I do not know how one could do this by machine, nor would I
want to. Much more control is gained by hand. I sewed a vertical line down in
place of each pin. Caution: make sure that the tape is exactly the right
length. Once this is done, you have permanently changed the midriff size of
the garment, and it cannot be stretched to close!
I agree with the front-open consensus. By the way, depending on how fancy this
garment was intended to be would influence your decision on the doublet that
goes underneath. A casually pleated garment (not using the method described
above) would require a moderate double, perhaps without major shoulders.
However, court garments would demand the shoulder width supplied by doublets
with big puffy shoulders. I believe that these are called "malhuitres" but I
can't quite remember. One does not often see these without the covering of a
gown, but after much peering and research they look as though one has a large
ball in only the upper part of the doublet sleeve. These are NOT cut the same
as Italian doublets of the same period, which used cartridge pleating but
extend a more moderate puff down to the elbow. No, these Burgundian versions
only have the padding right over the shoulder muscle, and it is very round and
emphasized. It is hard to see closeups of the pleating, but I think it was
still cartridge pleated, and probably cut differently to provide that ball
shape. My guess is that they were also padded, as they never seem to be
smushed down or affected by regular arm motion.
I could go on about these doublets, but I ramble, and your question was about
the gown. My recommendation is that if you can go with a more casual look,
then pleat without the tape, and don't make the malhuitres for the doublet.
However, going to the extra bother of both will make your garment instantly
recognizable as a Burgundian-era garment, as they are so typical and in so
many illuminations. A more casual approach will give you an accurate
middle-class look, but not as spiffy or impressive. My own experience with
this tells me that this is advanced costume construction, and not for the
faint of heart or short of time! Good luck!
Liz Jones
aka Mistress Damiana Illaria d'Onde (SCA)
[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:33:26 -1000
To: [email protected]
>> I wouldn't recommend a 'V' neck
>> cut as the gown neck is almost invariably cut close to the neck.
>
>Why is that? I've seen *so many* pictures of "V" necks (the Froissart
>chronicles again)!
>Of course, not in front, but in the back, and in this "V" the collar of the
>doublet comes up!
>(I didn't mention it, but I plan to put a high collar on the doublet)
>
>And furthermore: in how many pieces should I make the doublet collar?
As to the 'V' ... you are quite correct that a 'V' back (or infact I find that a deep
'U' is a better description as looks more like the illustrations & it fits better)
is typical. I use an almost identical neck cut for doublet & gown, this allows the
doublet collar to sit neatly in the gap left by the gown, or you can add a half or full
collar to the gown.
When I warned about the 'V' neck I was thinking of the front, alot of illustrations
show what looks a bit like a 'V' opening but this is invariably just a centre slit
which is gaping.
As to the collar ... I have seen period illustrations which show 2 & 4 piece collars,
the consistent part is the centre back seam. I prefer the 4 piece collars (seams
at centre back & shoulders) as I feel they give an excellent fit all round. The crucial
element being the collar standing straight as the shoulders round off.
Essentially this is an area of the tailors preference, then as now.
>>If you want a 'slip-on' gown ... for which there is plenty of evidence
>>as well, esp. amongst the labouring classes, then a 'polo-shirt'
>>style with a round, close fitting neck and a central vertical slit
>>closed by 2 (or 3) buttons. The slit reaching to mid chest.
>>This was a popular style in the 1440s amongst the middle & upper
>>classes but had been largely replaced by a smoother outline by 1460's
>
>What about hooks and eyes? And if I use buttons, should there be any below
>the waistline (sounds stupid perhaps, but I had to ask). I've never seen
>pictures of closed gowns where the buttons show, but perhaps I haven't
>looked for it. How and where should they be fastened?
My explanations causing problems again ... When I say 2 or 3 buttons I
mean JUST 2 or 3 buttons at the throat. If you look closely at alot of
Flemish pictures you will often see a small pair of buttons right at the
throat of the gown. Typically these are fastened to the edge ot the
under-lapping part of the gown (not on top of the cloth as modern
buttons are attached).
Usually you do not see any more buttons ... although they DO appear
occasionally, typically no more than 3 or 4 more pairs (& almost always
as pairs) spaced from chest to waist ... but this is not common, I'm afraid
I can't remember about below the waist for long gowns ... but they are
unnecessary for short gowns ... & in the Rene illustrations they are
Hooks & eyes must have been used as they survive archaeologically &
some of the butted Centre seams strongly suggest the technique, however
actual illustrations are few & far between. One good eg is the
painting of the Ferraran Court Jester by Jean Le Tavernier which
clearly shows wire hooks & eyes spaced down the inside seam where
it is gaping.
This is where I have to add a slight caveat to Liz's reply ...
> ...My personal opinion is that securing pleats to an inner band/tape
>is the method they used to get very regular pleats. There are other
>examples of more casual pleating which can be accomplished by simple
>belting, but a belt will NOT keep those perfect pleats in place at
>all if they are not permanently secured.
Yes if you want 'perfect' pleats as seen in pictures like Rene of
Anjou's illustrations of noblemen (either the Book of Love or Tourney
Book then you will need to have some form of fastening at the waist,
Jean Le Taverniers illustration of a Market scene clearly shows pleats
being held in place with the belt worn loos below, indicating that there
must be something other than the belt holding the pleats in place.
The waist band/tape was certianly used in Italy but I am unaware of any
evidence for it in northern europe ... if someone else does... Please
pass on the source!!!
Interestingly enough one of the pictures of an onlooker in Rene of Anjou's Tourney
Book where the challenge is being accpeted shows one of these 'formal' gowns open
and apparantly without any fastened pleats. But this may just be the angle as only
the first part of the openingis visible.
HOWEVER ... I have been able to create these pleats, and get them to stay in place
without any tacking, tapes etc. .... just with the belt, buttons & pattern described
previously. It works perfectly on long gowns .... which are often clearly shown as
ungathered when unbelted and reasonably well with the short gowns. The pleats do stay in
place with just a belt if the cut & fabric are right ... if not they go everywhere
& anywhere!
>as Italian doublets of the same period, which used cartridge pleating but
>extend a more moderate puff down to the elbow. No, these Burgundian versions
>only have the padding right over the shoulder muscle, and it is very round and emphasized.
This depends on the exact date & locale as a long, loose puffed sleeve
is visible in Flemish illustrations of c.1440 (one by Petrus Christus
from memory), whilst the short-short puffed sleeve is standard by 1460
Liz's comments about the puffed sleeve are quite important as I believe
most, if not all of the bulk in the pleated gown shoulder came from the
doublet, the sleeve of the gown merely accomodating this bulk.
Hope this helps a bit more
Cheers,
Dave
The White Company (1450-1485)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: "Chandler, Sally A."
Subject: RE: H-COST: HELP! Mid 15th c men's clothing!
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:00:00 -1000
Hello Hannah,
I've made several of these gowns with varying degrees of success. I
basically cut as per your diagram, making sure that the centre front is on
the straight of the grain so that the side seam is somewhat biased. I'm not
sure what your friend's dotted line will achieve except an awkward kink in
the side seam. An acquaintance of mine suggests (well - he demands - he's
that type of person!) that the shoulder seam should be angled upwards. I
can't explain this very well - Imagine that you lay the pattern out as above
then split it from the centre of the shoulder seam to the hem, straight down
the front. Keeping the two pieces together at the shoulder pull them apart
at the hem several inches to give the impression of a big gore. then
re-draw the pattern so you have several extra inches at the hem and a smooth
curve upwards at the shoulder and under the arm. This will give greater
swing to the garment and encourage it to fall into pleats more naturally.
I've also tried stitching the shoulder seam first then pleating over the
whole shoulder section but this is fairly unwieldy and unmanageable although
it does produce a better line and might work on a short gown. I always
pleat the outer fabric, lining and interlining together. I think the pleats
should be flat knife pleats rather than box pleats but I must admit I've
done both. The way of cutting which I've suggested above would encourage
flat pleats and might not work for box pleats.
I have tried to get the pleats to run from the shoulder inwards towards the
waist to accentuate the broad shoulders and narrow waist but they then need
to angle out again below the waist and this doesn't' work quite so well.
You need to stitch them into place at the waist (which looks OK) then snip
into the pleat at the back and secure this. Seems to work but is awkward.
I can't prove that all gowns opened at the front but I do think they are
more representative. They also give the opportunity to show off all your
fine work beneathth the gown.
Does this help / make sense?
Get back to me if I can be any more help.
Best wishes,
Sally Ann
[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:49:59 -1000
Subject: H-COST: Re: C15th Pleated Gowns
Reply-To: [email protected]
Personally I don't favour the pleated-on-the-shoulder style nor is it the most commonly
seen (although it most certainly is a style used during the period you mention).
Most of the most stylish (at least in my opinion) gowns of this period are shown
in Rene of Anjou's books. Typically these have pleats running from mid chest to the
waist, then flare out with the skirt. To achieve this style is actually very simple
& avoids much of the pleating you had planned. Essentially mark up a 4 piece body pattern
which fits correctly at the shoulder & across the chest, and continue the pattern
around to form the armhole.
Next draw a vertical line from the CF throat to bottom hem line, and a similar straight-line
from the armpit to the bottom hem making allowance for the hip. Do not bother with
the waistline at all. Assuming this is a fairly loose fit this should give you the most basic gown pattern, seen on household soldiers in Rene of Anjou the Beauchamp
Chronicles, where the only pleating is formed by the belt at the waist.
However you wanted a pleated gown .... so ... expand all of the width measurements
from the chest to the hip, so the shoulder is still a 'correct' fit but the waist
should be an extra 4 inches (this will vary according to taste & personal bulk) per
panel. This causes the side seam to be expanded to include this new triangle of cloth.
The most important thing at this stage is to adjust not just the armhole to this
new pattern but also the SHOULDER SEAM. This must be made so that when the gown sits
on the shoulder the excess bulk which has been cut at the side will fall across
the centre. Essentially the shoulder seam is drawn more at right angles to the cloth edge
than normal. It is only a small alteration but it will make all the difference to
where the pleats lie when worn.
Assuming you now have the basic loose gown it should be relatively
simple to either force the pleats with stitches at the waist (as
appears in some Northern illustrations), or with a tape (seen in
Italian illustrations) or simply with the belt. If the gown is cut
correctly and there is sufficient cloth of sufficient weight, then
the pleats will naturally fall into the waist & falre at the skirt.
An important element in achieving a good look is to ensure all of the
folds 'point' towards the centre, so the side lies completly flat.
The depth & roundness of the pleats formed should be almost entirely
dependent on the cloth used primarily for the outer but also the
lining. Heavy wools & fur lining will give the deep rounded folds
which people try so hard to emulate by stuffing.
A couple of other thoughts ... a large number of these gowns did not
have a collar, the visible collar was often being that of the
doublet beneath. This requires the back neckhole to be cut quite deeply
or at least as deeply as the front. A 2 (or 4) piece collar can be
inserted if desired.
As to how the fronts closed/opened ... the Rene of Anjou illustrations
clearly show (esp. in the preparation for the tourney) both the
simple 'soldiers' gown and the upper-class pleated gowns worn loose
and completely open at the front.
An interesting side effect of the excess cloth/overlap at the CF
is that I have found that the gowns will stay firmly closed with a
belt and a pair of buttons at the throat (which is just what yopu
see in alot of the illustrations). I wouldn't recommend a 'V' neck
cut as the gown neck is almost invariably cut close to the neck.
If you want a 'slip-on' gown ... for which there is plenty of evidence
as well, esp. amongst the labouring classes, then a 'polo-shirt'
style with a round, close fitting neck and a central vertical slit
closed by 2 (or 3) buttons. The slit reaching to mid chest.
This was a popular style in the 1440s amongst the middle & upper
classes but had been largely replaced by a smoother outline by 1460's
I hope this is of use ... and makes some (?) sense. Any explanations
or extra help ... just ask.
Cheers,
Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:31:09 -1000
From: Asia Reva Poppers
Subject: Re: H-COST: HELP! Mid 15th c men's clothing!
Hanna, if I'm reading your diagram correctly, the pleats you intend to
make are called "box pleats" in English, and if made in a heavy material
and pleated along the straight grain, I think they should hang well from
the shoulder with a minimum of stitching needed below the tops of the pleats.
I should, however, warn you that I have never used box pleats this way
myself, so if you hear something different from someone with more
experience, believe them, not me.
Good luck!
--Asia
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