Dunkin "Do-nots" (Or) . . .
Are There Rules For Baptism?
From a "religious" forum discussion on requirements for a baptism:(Name deleted) wrote:
>John the immerser said:
>Mt. 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:>1. Should a person requesting baptism have these fruits?
We respond:
The only requirements given in scripture are repentance and faith. How much fruit-judging could be accomplished when 3,000 were baptized the same day? How much fruit (good works, character improvement, etc.) could a repentant sinner accomplish between the sermon and the water?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you..."
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:38, 41)We are not advocating baptism of anyone who obviously displays un-repentance or lack of faith. We (should) have discernment.
But someone, asking in sincerity, should not have to face an inquisition or interrogation.
And someone being asked to perform a baptism, should feel honored and humbled.You wrote:
2. By their fruits you shall know them. How?Response:
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits..." (Mat. 7:15-16).
The "fruits" of the Holy Spirit are listed in Gal. 5:22 and elsewhere.
The "fruits" of "false prophets" would be the "works of the flesh" in Gal. 5:19-21.
Someone who hears a sermon that convinces him/her to repent immediately, and who wants to be baptized right away, in imitation of what is shown in scripture, will be greatly discouraged to encounter someone wanting the details of all their "fruits" (which could only be "works of the flesh" to that moment), prior to agreeing to perform a baptism.
There is no example in scripture of anyone being told to "wait", or to prove themselves over a period of time prior to baptism.
In effect, that would be putting another human being between a repentant sinner and the forgiveness of God. No human being has right to that intermediary position. There is only "one" High Priest and he (Christ) is spirit, not flesh.You wrote:
3. Are you not judging when you request to know their fruits?Response:
There is no example of a baptism in which there is an interrogation prior to baptism. The ideal opportunity would have been for John to ask Christ prior to His baptism, as an example for us.You wrote:
4. What fruits are necessary for baptism?Response:
Luke 3:7-8 seems to be the only scripture that mentions fruits prior to baptism.
"Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,..."Which fruits???
Verse 8, "...and begin not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father:..."John was speaking to Jews who felt that Judaism would save them. They had faith in a system of legalism. As long as they kept the letter of the law, they felt they were righteous and had no need to repent.
"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." ( Mk.1:4).
John preached a need for repentance (Mat. 3:2) and for faith in the "one" to come after him (Mat.3:11-12).
John was saying, "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of (the baptism) of repentance..."
The only two fruits, or requirements, are repentance and faith (Acts 2:38)
Neither of which requires time, as the example of the thief on the cross demonstrates, although one's fruits should increase with time (Lk. 23:39-43).You wrote:
Talking about ones who should [perform] baptism, some have indicated that they should be Ministers, others said, they should be older folks that understand the baptism process, others say, it makes no difference who does it.Let me say this: Suppose a young person, just coming into the assemble, now thinks he or she should start baptizing people. So this person is baptizing anyone and everyone that comes along, regardless of any fruit in the persons life.
Response:
The question leaves a lot to the imagination. How young?, six?, sixteen?, 26?, (to an octogenarian, 56 is "young"). :-)Is this person simply receiving requests for baptism, or is he advertising with a name tag, with business cards, with magnetic signs on his car that say "Baptisms-R-Me", "Baptisms while-U-wait", "Let me be the first to let you down", or "Dunking, Inc."? :-D
You wrote:
1. Is this in some way, bringing disgrace to baptism? Belittling the importance of baptism?Response:
We can see a disgrace if he is offering free clothes detergent or a bar of Dial Soap with every baptism, or if he is charging money for it, (i.e. demanding tithes and offerings). :~(Also if he cruises the neighborhood with a tank of water in the back of his pickup, or if he always shows up at services wearing hip waders. On the other hand, perhaps he's just being optimistic. :-D
If someone felt that their own baptism was a "disgrace" or "unimportant" because of the age, or gender, or degree of righteousness or unrighteousness of the baptizer, then perhaps that one doesn't really "understand the program".
None of us fully understood anything at the time of our baptism. If we think we did, then it's more likely due to our not having grown in understanding since then.
If it matters to us who did our baptism, then perhaps we are too concerned with "outward appearances" instead of "the heart".The only factors of importance are the repentance and faith of the one being baptized.
With that in mind it's not inconceivable that with 3,000 people being moved by the sermon to repentance, that many, in their joy and exuberance, just simply baptized themselves. The Jewish people are typically much more demonstrative than puritanically-influenced Americans, who too often confuse (a vain) solemnity with respect.
David danced in his skivvies before the Ark of the Covenant. His wife accused him of disgracing himself, his office and the nation, but the problem was her own vanity, and her personal concept of "dignity", which involved "outward appearances" (2 Sam. 6:12-23).
Can you imagine Queen Elizabeth dancing in her skivvies, if the Ark of the Covenant was discovered today?
God called David, a man after my own "heart", not after my own "outward appearance".If after hearing your sermon, I say, "I hereby repent and have faith in Christ's sacrifice.", who are you to deny me baptism?
If you demand a "track record", you are asking for more than the apostles did. You are "adding" to the program.I have read first-person accounts by some, and have met others, who are displaying the fruits of the HS, who were never in our (previous) corporate church, primarily because of pre-baptism demands put upon them by some local "minister" for various reasons, in one case, apparently out of jealousy.
If I say, "I repented years ago.", but I am still not demonstrating any fruits yet, and I ask you for baptism, and you know all that, then I should be judged (perceived) as not understanding "repentance" and counseled accordingly, as John 'counseled' the Pharisees when he told them to "repent" first.
If I have just been so counseled, and declare that, "I now understand and do repent, and do have faith.", then we're back to the question of, "By what authority do you deny me baptism?".We face a greater risk by failing to perform a baptism than by performing one.
"Withhold not good from them to whom is due, when it is in the power of your hand to do it." (Pro.3:27)
"...Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me." (Mat. 25:40).If I baptize someone and it turns out they lied to me, or they didn't really understand repentance or faith, will that be held to my account? There is no scriptural basis for that.
Am I accountable for the sins of those whom I may have baptized? There is no scriptural basis for that.
Am I responsible to God or anyone else, for the genuine repentance and faith of someone I baptize? How can I be, since only God can judge the heart.
Was John accountable for all 3,000 who were somehow baptized the same day after hearing his sermon? It's unlikely that he even met them all.A real-life example, is the young person (we have known of some, ages 16 to 20+) who is called and comes to the understanding of repentance and faith, and who has no immediate or foreseeable access to any "true believer".
Whom does he/she call on for baptism?
Would God deny him forgiveness of sin, or the Holy Spirit, because of his circumstance? He didn't do that to the "righteous" of the OT, who were never "immersed" in water. Would God consider his/her baptism invalid, or disgraceful, or unimportant if he asked a friend or relative to do it, or if he/she did it for themselves?
". . .no good thing will he [God] withhold from them that walk uprightly." (Psa. 84:11).Sometimes we spend too much time looking down the wrong end of the gun barrel.
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