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Forum Archive
(May
1998)
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- Welcome
to Dragon in Space Forum
[5/22/98]
Chen Lan :
Hi, friends
This forum is a new feature of 'Dragon in Space' website.
Please write here all you know or you want to say about
Chinese space program. This forum is just for 'Free of
Speech'
Have fun
Chen Lan
Dragon in Space webmaster
- Great
Job!!!
[5/23/98]
RKing :
Hey, you did an excellent job!!! You site is
simple but provides a great information. Thanks so
much!!!
A big Chinese space fan...
- Congratulations!!
[6/27/98]
ShiMK :
Excellent job! This website is well done. As an
emerging player in space, discussions of China's progress
will be welcomed by a number of space buffs.
- Question
on the father of Space in China
[5/23/98]
A. Chen :
You said Tsien Hsue-shen is the father of Space
in China. Is he the same person that was prosecuted in
the US during the McArthy era? And why does he has two
names?
[5/23/98] Chen Lan :
Qian Xuesen is formal spelling according to
current Chinese to English translation standard. Another
spelling is used before 60s when Qian is in US.
Yes, he is just the person you mentioned.
- An
article talked about the US sanction
[5/23/98]
A. Chen :
There is an article in the Wall Street Journal
(US version) yesterday (5/22/98) that talked about the US
sanction on satellite technology on China. In it, it
talked about the reason for the last failed Long March
launch was an improper soldered connection. It also
talked about they can't find the encrption box on the US
satellite that was blown up. It is kind of interesting.
[5/23/98] Chen Lan :
I've heard about it. The missing box may had
been picked up by a farmer :-)
I don't think the sanction will affect China. China can
also get such technology from Russia. It will also force
China turning to European satellite maker. America will
lost the market (currently US has Chinasat-8 and APMT
contracts) and its own commercial project will be
damaged, such as Iridium that relies on Long March for
its spare satellite launching.
[5/23/98] A. Chen :
I think that China likes to have more customers
for their launch service. For what I know, Iradium has 23
launches reserved for the LM rockets.
By the way, I think that in ten to 15 years, China as
well as the rest of the world will lose its price
advantage in the satellite launch business to the USA. US
is undergoing several programs to reduce the cost of
launching satellites by a factor of 10 to 100.
- Chinese
Space Shuttle
[5/23/98]
GW:
Is it true that China will launch a manned space
shuttle in 1st October, 1999?
[5/23/98] Chen Lan:
I don't think it's a shuttle. Chinese manned
spacecraft will be similar to Russian Soyuz. Maybe
Shuttle is the next step but I believe it will be many
years later.
- Global
Positioning Satellites
[5/23/98]
GW :
Has anybody any idea about how advance China is
technologically as far as using Global Positioning
satellites are concern for military purposes. GPS are
used by US for precision targeting of the missiles. If
so, in what ranking order is China, after the US in the
use of GPS?
[5/25/98] Mnine :
Of course, China has long been utilizing
GPS/GLONASS for a growing range of civil and military
purposes. There is reporting on an indiginous Chinese GPS
program called 'Twinstar' that was due to be launched
around now. Any furhter info on this project would be
appreciated. There is also recent reporting our of Hong
Kong (source always suspect) that the PLA has a DGPS
system in Fujian Province, ostensibly to support military
ops around Taiwan. Again, any confirmation would be
appreciated. The PLA growing use of GPS gives cause for
some comfort that the PLA will not attack the US GPS
network in wartime. However, given the growing US
reliance on GPS is cannot be discounted that the GPS
system would be a target in the event of hostilities
around Taiwan. In this regard it makes sense to seek
combined GPS/GLONASS systems for the broad range of uses
for China.
[5/28/98] Chen Lan :
Just curious how 2 satelites determine a
position. Maybe two GEO satellites above China? If so,
such a locally used system should called LPS instead of
GPS.
[6/27/98] ShiMK :
Mnine, you refered to a Hong Kong report which
discussed a DGPS network in Fujian province. Was this a
FBIS report, and if so do you have the specific journal
name and an approx date? By the way, my understanding of
the Chinese Twinstar is that it is a rudimentary radio
determination satellite system (RDSS) which will not
provide the accuracy necessary for space launch vehicles
or missile use. It will, however, lay a foundation for a
more sophisticated satellite navigation constellation
down the road.
- The
number of spy sattelites
[5/23/98] RC :
How many Spy satellites do China have?
[5/24/98] Chen Lan :
Up to 20. 17 FSW satellites and 3 satellites
launched by FB-1 are possibly spy satellites (but not
all)
- Question
for Chen Lan (GW might be interested also)
[5/23/98] A. Chen :
In your Q&A section, you mentioned that
China is working on a navigation system consisted of 2
satellites. This is similar to the American GPS. If it is
so, how is this possible?
To get the position of the satellite (x, y, and z) and
time (t), you can use simple geometry to get four
equations by using four satellites. Four equations and
four unknowns, it is a simple geometry problem. Of
course, to account for noises in the communications
channel, equipment variations, etc., usually one needs to
have five or six satellites simultaneously in view to get
a good solution.
Don't know how is it possible to get position data with
only two satellites.
Also, if I am missile designer in China, I wouldn't put
GPS receiver on any missiles. They might be able to get
very good performance in test conditions. But I would bet
that they will be useless (or even worse) during an
actual war.
[5/24/98] Chen Lan :
China released only a little information about
this project. I do not know its technical details and
specifications. China have already use GPS for military
uses. I think this system will not as advanced and
accurete as US's but will be useful in case US cut the
signal during war.
- Long
March 4
[5/24/98] SpaceJunk :
LM4 has rarely been used. What was it designed
for? Is the model a failure? uhmm, maybe 4 is indeed a
bad number for Chinese...
[5/24/98] Chen Lan :
I don't think so.
Long March 4 is designed for SSO orbit. There are a few
SSO payload in China. It will have 4 launches in next 3
years: FY-1C, FY-1D, ZY-1 and ZY-2.
- Chinese
Satellite Tracking Stations
[5/24/98] GW :
For effective use of satellites, China might
have to install tracking stations outside China. Does
China have any satellite tracking stations outside its
borders?? If so, which country? I know the US has many
tracking stations all over the world. These are friendly
countires to the US. In time of war, these tracking
stations will not be closed down or denied access to US
because they are manned my US personnels. I feel that
satellites will play very improtant roles in future
warfare.
[5/25/98] Chen Lan :
Yes, there is one in Pacific ocean. Located in
Republic of Kiribati, a south Pacific country. It begins
operation in late 1997.
[6/9/98] Mnine :
Is there any indication that China may have
access to Brazilian or ESA/French space track facilities?
If such could be arranged, along with the addition of a
site in a friendly african country, would that be
sufficient for global satellite track coverage? Or would
China also require additional northern hemisphere
tracking sites? Thanx.
[6/27/98] ShiMK :
Mnine, you asked if China is working with
ESA/france on space tracking. My understanding is that an
agreement for Chinese access to French space tracking
data was signed a few years. It is not clear if Chinese
(if so, probably COSTIND) are actually located within
French sites or if there is a data link which connects
tracking data to COSTIND's Satellite Tracking Center. As
China's presence in space grows, they need a more
extensive space tracking network for station keeping,
etc.
- Latest
launch
[5/24/98] vc :
What happened to the latest LM3B? Why is the
launch postponed
so many times?
[5/25/98] Chen Lan :
It originally scheduled in December 1997. Then
February. Then April. Then May 2. Then May 19. Then May
20, 22, 24. And finally May 28 now.
All launch date come from Lockheed Martin, the satellite
maker. No details about why it postponed were given. I
think it is quite normal. There are so many reasons:
weather, satellite and launcher test problems, and
support facilities problems. For example, two LM-2C
Iridium launches in March and April all have 3-4 delays.
- Congratulations
to this page
[5/25/98] vc :
(same vc who posted a message above) Just want
to congratulate Mr. Chen for setting up this page. Most
comprehensive info on Chinese rockets I've ever seen.
- Questions:
LM3's and LM4B
[5/25/98]
vc :
1) Do you think LM3A, 3B and 3C corresponds to
the Ariane 4 series? It looks like LM3C = LM3B minus 2
boosters but why it takes so long to develop.
2) Is LM4B = LM4A plus four boosters?
[5/25/98] Chen Lan :
1) Yes. LM-3B's GTO capacity of 4.8 tonnes is
similar to that of AR-44L, the most powerful model of
Ariane 4. Long March 3C will be ready next year according
to CALT. Why so long? I guess it has no customers so far.
2) I don't think so. It will launch ZY-1 and FY-1C this
year. We will see what's the diffrences.
- TSIEN
HSUE-SHIEN
[5/25/98] XIAOPING LONG :
I've read most of the English Version books published so
far about Tsien Hsue-Shien. Does anybody know any chinese
version books about his role and contributions to China's
Space and Missile Program?
Thanks!
- Question
on Radarsats
[5/25/98] Mnine :
In late 1996 China announced a domestic radarsat
program at the major international space assoc. meeting
in Beijing. At the time Aviation Week reported that
GEC-Marconi and DASA were interested in helping develop
the same. Also in 1996 Canada's SPAR (RADARSAT builder)
and China announced a cooperation agreement. One can only
presume that China has approached Russian radarsat
builders like Almaz and NPO Mashinostroyenia as well. Is
there any more infor or informed opinion on the status or
progress of China's radarsat program?
[5/26/98] Chen Lan :
Nothing reported since then
[6/27/98] ShiMK :
If I recall correctly, within the last year or
so China Aerospace (Zhongguo Hangtian) magazine reported
that the design of a domestic satellite-borne synthetic
aperture radar had been finalized. Not clear which
organization (CAST or Shanghai Academy of Space
Technology) has primary design and manufacturing
reponsibility.
[6/27/98] Chen Lan :
Thanks for the information
- Long
March 2C/SD
[5/26/98] Steve :
Does anyone have a picture or a diagram of the
Smart Dispensor used on the LM-2C launch Iridium
satellites?
- GTO,
LEO and SSO questions
[5/26/98] vc :
1) Why are rockets always dedicated to one role?
e.g. LM3 for GTO, LM4 for SSO only? Can there be an
"one size fits all"?
2) Anyone knows any link which explains how to calculate
the intended orbit of a satellite (in theory, of course,
I don't want to get into the details)
[5/27/98] Chen Lan :
1) To launch a GTO payload will need more power
than LEO payload, so the launcher normally need a 'upper
stage'. LM-3/3A/3B has a additional LOX/LH2 stage on top
of the LM-2/2E's 2 stages. Solar synchronous orbit(SSO)
also need more powerful rocket because it has lager
inclination (110 degree - reverse to earth's rotation)
and higher altitude. Three stage LM-4 was designed for
SSO and samll GTO payloads. LM-2 theoretically can also
launch very small GTO and SSO payloads but it is
meaningless. Of cause, the control and navigation system
are aslo different for different orbits. 'One size fit
all' is difficult.
2) May be somthing useful in this page:
http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/vsohp/satintro.html
- What
are souding rockets?
[5/28/98] Tango :
What exact is a sounding rocket? What is it used
for?
[5/28/98] Chen Lan :
The suborbital rocket for sicentific research.
- New
solid fuel SLV, belated congrats
[5/28/98] Mnine :
First, I belatedly wish to heartly join the
others who have offered congratulations on this fine web
page. It is most useful and documents achievement for
which Chinese should be proud. Question: What can be said
now about future Chinese solid fueled SLVs. Are they in
development? Any projections regarding size, thrust,
expected payload? I would appreciate any informed
speculation or observations. Thanx.
[5/28/98] Chen Lan :
I don't think China will have a pure solid space
launcher in future, although China has pure solid
strategic missiles for many years. In fact, CZ-1, CZ-1D,
CZ-2C/SD have already used solid stage. I'm considering
to add the engine detail data in my site, including solid
fuel engines.
[5/28/98] Mnine :
Is it safe to assume that the projected larger
booster attachments for the LM-2E improved version, are
liquid fueled? Any possibility they may be solid fueled?
Thanx.
[5/28/98] Chen Lan :
If you mean LM-2EA, its strap-ons are definitely
liquid fueled. It could be seen from the CALT drawing -
same diameter, same engine bell and same others with
origial 2E. For safty issue, I think liquid is much
better than solid, and strap-ons are also no problems.
There are so many launchers, including manned launchers
like Soyuz uses straps.
[5/28/98] Foxtrot :
If I'm right, solid are safer and faster to
prepare than liquid fueled boosters/engines but the
liquid fueled are more powerful? Thats' why most ICBMs
and other missiles are solid fueled and most launchers
are liquid fueled. So what would be the advantage of
using solid fueled boosters instead of liquid fueled ones
on a space mission?? Oh and great page!
[5/28/98] Chen Lan :
Is solid safer than liquid when launching?
Challenger disaster was caused by one of two solid
boosters. Liquid engine could be shut down after firing
but solid can not. Shuttle has several experiences of
emergency shut down of it main engine(liquid) and no lost
caused.
[5/28/98] RKing :
The reason for ICBMs likely to use solid fuel
because it provides much less space to store and less
time to launch. On the other side, if you launch
commercial satellite, why should you be in a big hurry
while choose less poweful solid fuel system?
By the way, which one, solid or fuel sytem is cheaper?
Thanks!
[6/27/98] ShiMK :
If I can add in my belated two cents worth. I
would speculate that solid fueled LVs would be of most
use to launch small satellites in a wartime situation. In
a major war, a static launch site is not survivable. For
a survivable, launch-on-demand, rapid relaunch capability
one needs a system that that be concealed, and then pop a
small recon satellite up, for example, after larger
satellites have been lost to ASATs. In China's case, they
are not quite ready to fight a space war, and it's not
clear they really want to. Chinese engineers, however,
have clearly been assessing solid fueled LVs which, like
the LM-2C, would most likely be adaptations of a missile.
DF-21 or, when fielded, the DF-31 would be the most
likely candidates.
- Any
news about LM3B's Launch?
[5/28/98] RKing :
Any news about LM3B's Launch?
[5/28/98] Chen Lan :
The latest message is it will be launched on May
31. Launch window is:
5:58 - 8:36 EDT
9:58 - 12:36 GMT
17:58 - 20:36 BJT
- Indian
Launchers
[5/29/98] Foxtrot :
Just wondering, how does Indian lauchers, such
as the ASLV, PSLV, and the GSLV compare with their
conterparts in China?? Since we have more experience with
launchers, I expect that ours are better and more
powerful than theirs?
[5/29/98] Chen Lan :
Absolutely. PSLV and GSLV are similar to CZ-4
and CZ-3 but a little smaller. Indian has made remarkable
progress in recent years. It will have LOX/LH2 engine
soon. It also reportly have started the research on
reusable launch system. See this page for more about
Indian space program:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/index.html
[6/1/98] vc :
But what I really don't like is their (initial)
rockets have many foreign parts, like the GSLV will have
a Russian cryogenic stage, the PSLV has a French engine.
etc. I don't know how many components in Chinese rockets
are imports, but it is always not good to rely on other
people for those high-tech goodies.
[6/2/98] Chen Lan :
Fully agree with you. Independent is important.
There are no major imported components in Long March as I
known. Maybe except for some computer chips?
- 'Yi
Jian San Xing'(one rocket, three satellites), when was
it?
[5/29/98] sean :
when did China first send multiple satellites
into space with one rocket?
[5/29/98] Chen Lan :
In 1981, by a Feng Bao 1 launcher. Satellites
are SJ-2, 2A and 2B. See my Launch Vehicle page,
Satellite page and Gallery page. (press BACK button on
top of the Forum page to my main page first)
[5/31/98] Mnine :
During this launch, were the satellites merely
stacked, or were they configued in a parallel maner in
the launch bus? The later configuration roughly discribes
the Iridium launcher bus, correct? Thus, one could
reasonable presume that the Iridium launcher bus is much
more sophisticated than that used in the 1981 launch?
Thanx in advance for your views.
[6/2/98] Chen Lan :
Yes, Iridium launch need a 'Smart Dispensor' (a
solid stage) to release satellites into different
orbit(although in same plane). SJ-2s launched in 1981 are
different. SJ-2 is inside SJ-2A, or is covered by SJ-2A's
skirt. That is, SJ-2A must be released prior to SJ-2. It
only need a simple mechanism instead of stage. SJ-2B is
just two ballons linked with a cable, which was released
from one of other two satellites. Three satellites
finally entered very similar orbit. That's why Iridium
launch is more sophiscated.
- Long
March 2E
[5/29/98] Joseph Maguire :
I understand the LM 2E is rumored to be the
likely launch vehicle for manned space flight. 1) Has it
launched any prototypes or mockups for a manned craft? 2)
Is it what NASA would call "man-rated", i.e.,
rated suitable for launching people? This was an issue
with the Titan II before it was man-rated for Gemini
because of the "pogo" effect.
Thanks!
[5/29/98] Chen Lan :
1) No. But it is also rumored to have 1-2
unmanned prototype launches later this year or earlier
next year.
2) I don't know what is NASA's criterion of so called
'man-rated'. I believe Chinese have considered that
manned launcher needs higher reliability but 'how
higher'? It could be quite different in US, Russia and
China. It is reportly an improved Long March 2E, probably
2E(A), will be used to launch the manned spacecraft. So
it is really a new launcher. There are no details about
this launcher so far. I believe it was designed with
higher relaibility than other Long March models, and is
comparable with Titan and Vostok/Soyuz.
- Chinese
Spy Satellite
[5/30/98] GW :
Does China have spy satellites like the ones
that the Americans have in taking photos of activities in
other countries. American spy satellites are capable of
taking detailed pictures of activities going on the
ground many miles above the countries it is spying on.
Does China have this capability??? Can someone answer my
question, please..Thanks
[5/31/98] Chen Lan :
Chinese FSW satellites have onboard camera. But
they have no real-time monitoring capacity and have only
up to 16 days orbit life. China has no such satellite
since 1996. I believe the next generation electronic
imaging satellite will be launched earlier next century.
[6/27/98] ShiMK :
Chen Lan: My understanding is consistent with
yours. However, I thought China's first downlink
capability will come with the launch of the ZY-1
China-Brazil Earth Resources Satellite sometime this
year. While of little military use, the charged coupled
device (CCD) technology, which allows for digitized
images to be transmitted to a ground station, on the ZY-1
could be applied to the next generation of fanshihui
(FSW) remote sensing satellites. Speaking of this, any
into the FSW-2 follow-on, the FSW-3?
- Two
questions
[5/31/98] Foxtrot :
I have two questions, hopefully someone can
answer them. First, will China launch any more FSW series
recoverable satellite, any new developments in the FSW
series sattellites? The last one launched was back in 96.
Second, what is the status of the FY-2B sattelite right
now? The meteorological sattelite's antenna lost Earth
lock back in April, have this problem being fixed? If
not, does it mean the FY-2B is useless now?
[5/31/98] Chen Lan :
FY-2B is hopeless, just wait the next one.
[6/1/98] Foxtrot :
When will that be? any dates set yet? n/t
[6/1/98] Chen Lan :
Originally set for the end of next year. Not
sure whether it is rescheduled after the 2B lost.
(Note: the official designation of the satellite
mentioned in this thread should be FY-2A)
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