=pveto136

START FLYING EDIT OF =pvkto136

Verbatim transcription: =pvkto136
Notes, keyed to verbatim transription: =pvnto136 + =pvoto136

I've left in some but not all of my footnote references, but that
don't signify nothing, I just couldn't decide whether to do so.


Audio input:  Side A: =pvto136e ; Side B: =pvto136f
  Formats au/aup, wav, mp3, ogg
Complete sets to Abode (Devi Tide, to copy to Sir Wardi Gebel),
and to Aziz Dikeleous
Compressed files at least sent to ZR Suresnes.
In general, I sent PVK material only Registered Mail, since it's
rather valuable and a bit of an investment in time,

Compressed files sent to Alev and to AG            

I'm not real comfortable about posting PVK material to my Website,
but if nobody raises a security objection, I reckon I'll go ahead
with doing it, since it is more convenient, and nobody who ain't
supposed to find it is apt to see it, as_it_is_said, "goat can't
get through the clutter" 

----------------------------------------------------------------


Tape from Sufi Order in the West (SO(W)) , Adirondack Chapter,
Lebanon Springs I think, New York, titled "Initiation"
Early 1970s, I guess.
Input as audio in the usual formats, I think as =pvkto136.*, where
* is au/aup, wav , mp3 , and ogg
Copies of audio input sent to Abode (att: Devi, and Mr. Wm.
Gebel), and to ZR at least in the compressed formats, and to Aziz
Dikeleous in all formats.
This Flying Edit will be posted to me Website,
www.geocities.com/sa73122a

Following the verbatim, which follows English tradition up to the
Me Generation,I use the male pronoun in a gender-netural sense.

PVK's spoken style has a tenativeness, especially with regard to
choice of concepts, that I edit out.

In general, I tend to edit out non-significant phrases.  If
something goes without saying, I don't say it.

Ricky Sherover, zl'b, used to sing:
"Walked down to the station / ready to go. / If the train don't
come / something's wrong down the 'road."


"And if anybody asks you / who sang this song / tell 'em it was
me, and I sung it from midnight on."

{nie-0}

The Talmud says, or maybe midrash, King David "used to sleep like
a horse until midnight", then get up and work through morning.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
{START FLYING EDIT OF TAPE TO136 SIDE A}


Initiation is an aspect of Murshid which is very important to many
of us, because the path that we are following is the initiatic
path.

In the traditions of the past one has had access to this path
through what is called 'initiation'.  Although we're living at a
time when people would like to do away with these old traditions,
it's necessary for us to understand the reason for them.  Then we
can 'flow with it' much more easily.

Hazrat Inayat Khan describes 'initiation' as taking the plunge
into something that one doesn't know, when one has just a hunch
that that is the way that one is supposed to go.

One can only learn something if one is prepared to adopt another
point of view to the one one has been adopting so far.
In a sense it's a kind of trust.  

The best way of explaining it, or the best simplification of it is
-- climbing the mountains with a guide.  

One chooses a guide because one is made to understand that that
guide knows the landscape better than one does oneself.
That itself is a kind of a trust that you give to the guide.  

On the spiritual path it's a little bit more complex.
The guide has to make you gain confidence in his knowlege.

[An infant is quietly babbling in the background.  PVK remarks:
I'm sorry, no children here.
(ni-2)

It's the rule of the game.  So the teacher musn't assume that
people are just going to follow him because he's supposed to be a
teacher.  He has to prove that he knows the lie of the land.

The more the pupil is able to trust him, the more he is able to
get the pupil to do things or to think things which the pupil
wouldn't have been able to trust himself to do if the pupil hadn't
gained confidence in the guide.


To illustrate:  suppose  you've got the fingers of your right hand
on one ledge, and you've got the fingers of your left hand on
another ledge, and you've got your [left-foot] toe just hanging on
to a bit of a ledge there, 
{nie-1}
and your right leg is swinging somewhere in the void, and then he
says , Now you leg go of your left hand, and you just swing your
arm over to the next ledge.

Now you'd never do it -- never.  In a thousand years.  But he
tells you to do it.  And you do it is because you have gained
trust that he knows what he's doing and he wouldn't ask you to do
it unless he thought you were able to do it.  

That's the kind of trust that the spiritual path involves.  

Because otherwise one would never trust oneself to come to realize
one's Divine Nature.

Everything in one's life tends to draw one into one's personal
consciousness.
It takes a lot of trust to be able to trust oneself to be what one
really is.  
Actually one can do it, but one doesn't know that one can do it. 
Or one knows it, but one doesn't know that one knows it.  And
that's what the teacher has to do.

In Sufi tradition we are SALIQ, pilgrims, on a path.
Each person is in a certain place on that path, in a certain
station, MAQAM. 
His/her Maqam is as much as he sees, or is able to overcome.
The amount of ascendenscy that he has over himself, his
realization, the quality of his emotions, the values that he
attatches to things in life -- those determine the place that each
person is in life, at a paritcular time.

The reason why we're not further than we are is because we don't
see the next step.  
{ni-3}

And this can go on eternally.

We follow the initiatic path because we hope that our initiator
will show us the next step.  

There's an unknown factor there.  
One has a hunch that this is the path that I want  to follow.
Many people have followed a path, or followed a guru, and been
disappointed.  
Sometimes it's not because the teacher wasn't a good teacher; but
because he wasn't the teacher for them.  

But sometimes it IS because the teacher was not entirely
authentic.  Lots of people want to be teachers.  

It's a tremendous responsibility to take upon onesel the spiritual
well-being of people.  

It's been my main concern, particularly when I was younger, to
encounter wonderful beings -- rishi's and dervishes and so on,
what they call the guru hunt.  I spent many months, and perhaps
even years, visiting all the teachers of our time, just like
Hazrat Inayat Khan did when he was young.  Buddha also, according
to tradition, visited all the teachers of his time.  He tried out
the different ways.  

A psychoanalyst might say that because my father died when I was
10, I was looking for my father again in someone else.

But in every being there is a kind of longing to find a being who
represents a kind of tangible ideal. 

Because theoretical teaching, is not altogether satisfactory.  

Once I was giving instructions in meditation and someone said: 
'When you are meditating with us it's wonderful, and we get into
it, but when you're just giving the instructions, we can't do it. 

I thought, there you go again, they want a guru.  But I want them
to be free from me. 

In those days I believed that the real guru should withdraw and
not put himself forward; that he should just make people free.
Because I've seen so much harm done by guru's who hold people
under subjection by their will.  And how can a person attain the
fulfillment of their being if they're not free.
{TAPE 136 SIDE A {100}
{ni-4}

But I had a very bad night.                                   
And the next morning when I meditated I realized one has to accept
to become an instrument that is helpful to human beings in their
unfoldment.
Indeed, if I were to meditate on the strength of the instructions
that I give, I would never be able to meditate.  If I'm able to
meditate at all it is because of the particular charisma, or the
particular attunement of conciousness that has been transmitted to
me through the wonderful beings with whom I have meditated.
And particularly of course the being of Hazrat Inayat Khan, who is
always present somewhere in my soul.  

And so I realized that whst people need most is the transmission
of something personal, like the emotion that is carried by a human
being.   It ignites the soul of the people who come in contact. 

We find that at this Camp when  we're all together in the
mediation.  Its wonderful because we're sharing in something that
is communicated.  
And when I just give instructions I realize that people start
getting a bit bored.
{nie-2}


It's seeing in another oneself all those things that are in
oneself -- but one hasn't been able to express or manifest them
yet.   And so one is longing "to see oneself in another onself."
Consequently ione is alwaqs seeking the teacher who has some
affinity with oneself.

Some people who don't have enough affinity.   When they realize
that they don't have an affinity with me in this particular case
then they leave and look for some other teacher.


Every teacher has something to give.

When I was on a guru hunt, looking for rishis and dervishes and
monks, and holy men, there was one criterion that always guided
me.  If, after seeing a guru or rishi or whoever it was I felt
like dancing in the air and bubbling over with joy and energy and
I was set free and illuminated and purified and so on -- well,
that was a criterion that he was a real teacher.  


But I came across some beings who had a tremendous power, they sat
there 

[ PVK somehow evokes in his tone the sense of a being of great
power, sort of a cross between the Buddha and lion who is still
waiting with waning politeness for the entree to be served ]

and everybody bowed before them and so on.  And somehow I always
saw behind the sham of it all.  It always -- I could see that it
was a show.

The criterion there was the ego.  A person can have a very
imposing personality, but have a very strong ego.  A lot of people
just don't see it.  O)ne has a blind spot in one's eye.

Not that the teacher should be wishy_washy.  On the contrary, some
of these dervishes were extremely powerful.  But it was completely
impersonal, it was the Divine power.
{TAPE TO136, SIDE A, {150}}

I've never known anybody as powerful as Hazrat Inayat Khan.   
With all of my journeying and travelling and so on.  I've seen
rishis in caves who nobody has seen for 10 years and I've seen
some of the hermits in Mt. Athos in Greece who were living by the
trunk of a tree.  I've seen hundreds of gurus, hermits, and
rishis, but I never have come across anybody like Hazrat Inayat
Khan.  

One of the criteria of an authentic teacher is whether the power
that is coming through is ego power, personal power -- or if it is
the Divine power.  
The Divine power comes through when the consciousness of the rishi
has been attuned very very high, so that's he's drawing his energy
from the source of all energy. 
And if not -- well then you see that kind of very personal will,
and a very imposing personality, which impresses a lot of people. 

The reason that a lot of people are impressed by that type of guru
is that they lack self-confidence, and the guru's self-confidence
is likely to give them self-confidence.  And that's why they're
there.

Everyone is drawn, up to a certain point, by the guru who has an
affinity with him.  

Sometimes I feel that some of the people who are drawn to what I
have to give seem to belong to a kind of spiritual family. 
There's a family feeling.  
Sweedenbourg says that people who are haveing a certain affinity
in the angelic planes tend to live together in the villages.   And
so each village has its kind of idiosyncracy.
{ni-9}

{PVK often used to say, you get the teacher that you deserve.}

The real guru then has to make the pupil aware of what is in him,
and also bring him to an outlook which is beyond the outlook that
he has so far.

An essential aspects of the transformation takes place in the ego
of the pupil.  For the pupil to realize the goal of beccoming an
egoless powerful being, his ego has to be tackled with.
{ni-10}

A guru with a strong ego will batter the ego of his pupil ny his
ego.  Maybe some people need that kind of battering.  

This is what is called 'submission'.
That is one of the mostdifficult things for people to do.  
Hazrat Inayat Khan says:  "All submit to love willingly, and to
power unwillingly."

[ HIK Collected Sayings (Omega 1991) verse 332 (Gayan: Chalas): 
"All surrender to beauty willingly and to power unwillingly."]
{TAPE 136 SIDE A {200}} 

The problem arises when the child wants to do something and his
parents feel that it isn't good for him.  It involves his ego.  

So there's a kind of tension between the guru and the pupil. 
Murshid says, the question is how far you can allow that thin
thread to be pulled.  

You can get to a point when the pupil cannot take the lead that's
given to him.  That's where the conflict arises.
The puiil has an ego of course.  Maybe the teacher has some ego,
or not much, or no ego. 

The teacher has to see just how far he can let that thread be
pulled.  The teacher is giving a direction to the pupil, and the
pupil wants to go in another direction-

The pupil has his own free will.  The teacher must not kill the
free-will of a person.   But if the pupil wants to learn, then he
has to some extent to fit in with the trend.  It's a very delicate
balance. 
{ni-10a}

It's the same kind of thing that you experience with your
children.  As I said yesterday, it's your love for your children
which will enable you to impose a certain discipline upon them, 
if they feel your love.
But if that link isn't strong enough then they will start
disliking you, or disobeying.  Then there'll be a breakdown of
communication.
{ni-11}

The only thing that will enable the pupil to overcome his way of
wishing, or of thinking, or even of feeling -- is an intuition
that the way that the teacher is trying to show is right, or is
good.
Sometimes it's difficult, becaise one sees things according to
one's vantage point.  It's no use simply just giving up one's
vantage point and following blindly the way of another person. 
That doesn't do it for you.
{ni-12}
You have to cope with your vantage point, you can't just put it
aside.  Because then you're cutting out something that is very
real in your life.   And the guru is not supposed to do it,
although many do. 

So it's a very subtle relationship.
[TAPE TO136 SIDE A {250}

In an emergency the alpine guide will say to his pupil, No, don't
do that.  Just as a parent will forbid her child to do something
dangerous. 
Bit otherwise you let your child -- let's say, step in the water,
and get wet -- and well, it's a nuisance for you, but still --
he'll learn, eventually -- hopefully --  
{ni-14}                                 
But one must set limits, as with playing with fire.
{nŒe-3}


Behind this all there's something very deep:  the pupil is really
part of the consciousness of the teacher.  That's the most sacred
aspect of this whole thing.                   

Of course for all human beings, the poeple we love are part of
ourselves.  We carry them within ourselves.  Sometimes we speak
like them or think like them.  

And as that is true of ordinary relationships, it's even more true
of the pupil and the teacher.  
In the East they say that the pupil is like a grain of sand in the
oyster, and the oyster transforms that grain of sand into a pearl.
{ni-15}

There's an involvement.  Hazrat Inayat Khan says, in his
instructions to leaders:  The most important thing in your life is
your concern for your pupils.  

			

The main concern of a teachers is to be continually working with
his pupils on the higher planes.  
He may not have seen them for many months, but he has been
thinking of them.

What we do is to think of each one of our pupils in turn, during -
morning meditation.  
You can imagine how many that is in my case.  So I have asked to
have passport-size photographs of the mureeds.  Some people send
big photos in frames, with the whole family, and things like that. 
But I can't carry all of that around.  Send just a little
passport-size photo with your name behind, and your wazifa,  Some
of you are very clear for me, others less.  
{nie-5}


And I go by Cemters,  so I like to have all the mureeds from one
center on one page.   And then I just glance at it.   
One gets so in the habit of being continually conscious of people
that one picks up their vibrations.  One establishes a real live
contact.  


When I see you again you know that I've been thinking of you. 
Something happens, it's like a fantastic click takes place .
{TAPE TO136 SIDE A {300}
        
So it isn't just a matter of the teaching that is given, although
{ni-19 that can alter one's whole way of thinking, doing,
experiencing, and living.  
But there' is also work that takes place on the higher planes. 
One can talk of the Presence rather than the Manifestation.
I was talking about that yesterday when I was speaking about
Sufism.  

The best example of it is the case of the teacher of the teacher
of Hazrat Inayat Khan.  
I've told this story before, but there are some people who may not
have heard it before. 

He was a very brilliant scholar, an Arab who had been invited by
the NIYAM OF HYDRABAD  .  And as usual, on Thursday evening, they
have the Sama, the Zikr, 

He was sitting there, and there was a dervish who kept on looking
at him.  Staring at him.  And he kept on looking away, and the
dervish kept on staring at him.  Why -- why is he staring at me
like that.


Afterwards the dervish came up to him and said, I have
instructions to initiate you.    And he replied, No, I'm just on
visit here, I'm going to be initiated by the murshid of my father,
in Arabia, in the Hajaz.  And the dervish said, Well, I definitely
have instructions to initiate you.  He said, No, I don't want to
be initiated, I want to be initiated by the Murshid of my father'

But that night he dreamt that the Murshid of his father told him
that he should be initiated by that dervish.

The next morning the dervish knocked at the door and said, I've
come to initiate you.  And he said, But I told you that I didn't
want to be initiated by you.  He said, Have you forgotten your
dream so soon.
 
It was very difficult to let himself be initiated by the dervish,
because he was a scruffy old dervish, and -didn't even speak
coherently.
Whereas he himself, ABU HASHIM ADONI was a very ditinguished
scholar, and very elegant.
  {ni-20}                                                 
He had all these questions he kept on asking the dervish, and the
dervish wasn't able to answer his questions, so he thought well,
what kind of a teacher have I gotten myself stuck with now.     

Every night of course they repeated the zikr, and while he was
repeating the zikr the dervish came into the room and he said, I
AM the answer to your question.  

I think that's the most typical story that I've ever heard,
because that is the real way of initiation.  There's something
that can be given by the teaching, but it is the sort of
communication of truth by the being rather than by whatever can be
learned.

And then of course he fell at the feet of the dervish and realized
that he was  indeed his guru.
{ni-22}
{ni-23}

So as I say, it's only the being of the teacher -- and it's really
the being of G_d manifesting through the teacher -- that is
powerful enough to make the pupil willing to forego things he
wants to do or things he thinks or things he feels.

It takes a very strong jolt to get one out of one's vantage point,
And that's the link.
It's the link of being.

Of course the teacher himself is not alone.  
He is linked with his teacher, and of course through his teacher
to the teacher before him and so and so forth.
So he's linked to a whole chain of teachers, and through that
chain to the teachers of other initiatic schools.
So in the end one can say that he is linked to the hierarchy of
all the masters saints and prophets of all times.   

Of course each teacher has his own teaching, because each human
being is unique and presents the Divine Being in a particular
form.

It's a pity if the teacher simply brings you into his own trip.
Your needs may not be completely met by the particular trip of
your teacher.  

Zhat's the thing that I keep on apologizing about, 
I'm in this new maquam now,  and what I can talk about
convincingly is only something that I'm experiencing deeply.
But it may not be the maquam in which you are at the particular
moment.  
{ni-23a}             
{nie-6}


On the other hand, sometimes I feel tha the people who come at a
particular moment are attracted by the maqam in which I happen to
be at the time.
I don't know how things work out, there's a fantastic computer
behind everything, 
[ni-23b}
People just come at the right time when they find that I am in a
state of consciousness that is in consonance with their being.

The teacher will of course present the traditional teachings in
his own way, but by the fact that he is in contact with all the
masters saints and prophets, he must also bring the teaching of
all of the teachers. He would be llmiting you by imposing upon you
his particular way of thinking.
{TAPE TO136 SIDE A {400} }

He has to be both authentic in his own way, and also all-
comprehensive, 'wholistic'-

He is supposed to be continually 'picking up'  connections with
all the masters.
It starts with those who are closest to him, like in my case
Hazrat Inayat Khan.
And then those of the Chisti order, and then those of the Sufi
Order, generally.
{nie-7}


And then from there on to the teachers of all the different
religions.

So sometimes I give my own teaching,  sometimes I talk about
Hazrat Inayat Khan's teaching, or about the Sufi's-  Amd 
sometimes I talk about another esoteric school.  For example, this
afternoon I'll be talking about the Greek Mysteries. 
{ni-24} 

The teacher is linked up, he is part of the whole hierarchy.  Sp 
initiation is not just initiation to him, as a person, or linking
yourself up to him as your guru, but it is linking up with the
whole hierarchy.  He is the connection, let's say, in the network,
the 'chain'.

But it isn't true to say that you can't by-pass him.

Like in a business organization you have to go thorugh your
'Chief', your immediate supervisor.
And then he can pass the matter up higher if he feels like it, but
you can't by-pass him.  
 
That is not so in the spiritual field.
You can have direct communication with a teacher higher up in the
hieracrchy.
For example you can reach Hazrat Inayat Khan without having to go
through your teacher.   Or you can reach into the consciousness of
a great Sufi, like al-Hallaj, or a great teacher like Buddha.
You're not limited by the initiation to a particular teacher.
In the Sufi Order we do not consider the link of initiation to be
quite the same as in the guru-chela relationship.

[N.B.:  It is KIT 31 (not KIT 33 as I note earlier in this doc)
that is "The Guru Syndrome" and that is inserted by the SO
Suresenes as a preface to a booklet of KITs 61--72. 
That was PVKs first move to state emphatically that his role was
not that of a guru.] 

In the guru-chela relationship, the guru supposed to be entirely
your teacher and you're connected up with him almost to the
exclusion of the whole hierarchy -- you have to pass through him. 

In our Sufi Order, the teacher--mureed relationship is otherwise.
The reason is that we are not just an esoteric school.  
Am esoteric school is revolves around a [single] teacher, a
[single] guru.  
{nie-8}

{nie-8}
{Well, PVK has sometimes remarked that what we now term "Sufi
dance" started with Jallal-ad-Din Rumi standing in the center of
the floor as the sun, while his students revolved and whirled
about him as the planets.}

Whereas an Order like -- what we mean by The Message is more than
an esoteric school.  
{nie-9}

The Message of our Time is extremely broad.
It encompasses the Masters, and teachers and Prophets of all
times.  That is what's happening in our times, it's the New Age.

Not that one can simply just go and take practices from all
teachers.  
Doctors don't like you to take medicines from different doctors,
because it could damage you-

Some people go to one teacher, and then another, and another.
They don't see why they couldn't just take initiation with all
these teachers, because they think that blessings are cummulative. 
As if the more blessings you get the better-endowed you are.
{ni-25} 

One [ I think PVK here means, an initiate as well as a non-
initiate] can commune very deeply with all the  genuine spiritual
beings, and even meditate with them if they will allow one to.

But all genuine teachers will always ensure before you take
initiation with them that you are not following the practices of
another teacher, because it would be confusing for you, and maybe
harmful for you.
{ni-26}  

There are different ways of dealing with a problem sometimes.  You
can see that in aircraft construction for example,  There are
different theories about whether it's better to have high wings or
low wings, or 3 engines-
Analogously each teacher has his method.
Sp how can he carry through his method if you mix up whatever he's
teaching with what you get from somebody else.

But he himself may find a synthesis- 
For example sometimes I speak about Buddhism.
It seems very different from the way of the Sufis, but somehow I
try to show how it all dovetails.  

That's all right the synthesis comes through me [so presumably it
doesn't contradict the basic teachings.]
I can even sometimes give pupils Buddhist practices, Buddhist
meditations to do.  

But it's not the same thing as if you went and did Buddhist
meditations with a Buddhist teacher, and so on.
{APPARENTLY END RECORDING  SIDE A TAPE TO136} 
{YUP, END TAPE SIDE A TO136 {689}}

----------------------------------------------------------------

{START TAPE TO136 SIDE B}

One may be practicing yoga, and at the same time doing some of the 
practices given by the Sufis.
Hatha yoga is always good, it can't do any harm.

But if you start doing a heavy kundalini program, it 's better
that you follow the teacher who's teaching you kundalini, and do
it really properly, rather than mixing it up with the wazifas, or
the zikr, which might take you in a different direction.

Now I do teach kundali, but the way I teach itcan very well be
reconciled with the zikr or with other things.
{ni-28} 

Behind it all there's something which doesn't seem to make the
same sense nowadays as it used to make -- 'loyalty'.
{ni-29} 

It's a very deep connection, freely undertaken.
We are living at a time when people don't like to be bound.
They think that taking initiation to one school is a limitation.
{ni-30}                          
{TAPE TO136 SIDE B {050}}

Hazrat Inayat Khan once said, Initiation is really freedom -- you
are affirming your freedom by chosing to bind yourself to a
certain school.  

Now, you may change.  You may find that this is not what you're
really looking for.  Maybe you were mistaken in your judgement at
first, or maybe you've changed.  And as you change, this school
may not be the right one for you.  And that is where we have
freedom of course, to move from one school to another.  In the
West one isn't bound for life, although in the East one is.  

In the East, at least in the old days, once you have been part of
a school you can't change to another.

Now it is possible that your guru might send you to another guru-- 
But you don't go to your guru and say, Well, I've had enough of
you, now I want to find some other guru.   

My experience here in the West, is that some people don't even
have the courtesy to tell you that they're going to another
school, you just don't hear of them any more.  And you still have
them on your list.  
The minimum sort of courtesy required of the mureeds is to let us
know whether they still wish to be linked up.

The initiatic link, once its been established, can never be broken
totally.  One can go to another guru, and take teachings from that
guru.  But it's a little bit like, if once you've loved someone,
and that person marries someone else, you can't all of a sudden
stop loving that person -- a link is there.

The pupil is part of the consciousness of the teacher.
That pupil may have estranged himself in chosing another path, 

Or maybe he doesn't want to adhere to the way that the Order is
serving at that time. 
  
People are free to decide whether they feel an attunement with the
way you're doing things. 

But as a teacher you will always hold these people very dearly --
very sacredly, I mean -- in your consciousness. 

It's curious to see that people who are friends can all of a
sudden become enemies.
For me its always baffling, because one can disagree with a person
without being inimicable.
It's a question of respect of a person's point of view.

But the love is the strongest thing,  The link of love will always
be there, whatever the divergence in opinion.

Hazrat Inayat Khan says that the initiation is like a
companionship.
It is like making a trip in the mountains with a guide.
Amd then he says, The time may come when that which the teacher
had to teach has been given.  Then their relationship becomes one
of friendship.  

The element of frinedship is always there.
If the pupil does not continue to look upon the teacher for
guidance, then the teacher is unable to teach him.

Then it's just an ordinary friendship, which is very nice but the
the teacher is in a difficult position because he has to somehow
{TAPE TO136 SIDE B {100}}
make the pupil understand that he is guiding him.  Otherwise he
foregoes his ability to guide the pupil.  

So it's a friendship with a -- how can I say -- with a particular
bent.        

[ This ain't entirely clear here. ]

If a person thinks that his way is THE way then he doesn't have to
learn, and there's no point in coming to a teacher.
You have your own way, so go your own way.  
It's OK, there's nothing wrong with that.  But if you want
training, you must be prepared to question your way of thinking
and of seeing things.   And you can only be prepared to do that if
you have sufficient trust in the teacher's way.  Or if somehow you
have the intuition that that is the way, even though it doesn't
make sense to your mind.

It's a challenge to the mind.

When one takes initiation one undertakes to follow a training.  
We have respect for the freedom of those who are undergoing the
training, because we don't want people just to pay lip-service to
something that hasn't become a deep conviction in them.  And we
link people to the hierarchy of Masters Saints and Prophets.

I don't like the idea that one is a Sufi or not a Sufi, as if  it
were kind of label, like beomg a Catholic or not a Catholic, or --
even these days, that doesn't make sense anymore.  
{ni-33a}
                                                                  
[ I think PVK here is saying:  Nowadays, even to say that one is
or is not a Catholic may not make sense. ]


One can say that one has taken initiation in the Sufi Order.  And
one can say that one is deeply linked with a teacher, or an
initiator, and through the initiator to maybe the initiator of
that initiator.  

What makes an ordianry person into a teacher is  that through the
initiation one concentrates so much upon the teacher that one
begins to manifest the qualities of his being.  

One should not concentrate on his personality, but on his 'eternal
being'.  
Like the difference between thinking of a person,  and then
experiencing what it's like to be that person.  That is; getting
into the consciousness of that person when that person is in his
personal consciousness.

 And then there's a third stage, which is experiencing what that
person would be experiencing if he were in his higher
consciousness.

This concentration on that teacher shouild never be concentration
on the teacher in his human nature -- but should always be
concentration on the divine nature that is coming through him at
certain momemnts when he is in his highest [or: higher]
consciousness.

Maybe sometimes he's not in his highest concsciousness, and so the
divine aspect of his being is hidden.  
And that's one of the grave mistakes that people make, to get
themselves attatched to the person of the teacher.  

And that's the reason why Jelal-ad-din Rumi says -- Islana(?) says
that the real Pir destroys that idol that people make of him.  

[Cf. HIK, "Shatter your ideals on the rock of truth." (938,
Gayan/Vadan/Boulas ]

{TAPE TO136 SIDE B [150}}

Many people are attatched to the personality of the teacher.  
Hazrat Inayat Khan didn't want that.  
And of course that's absolutely contrary to Islam.  That's the
power of Islam.   They didn't want any depiction of the Prophet
Muhammed, so that one wouldn't make an idol of him.
         
So one enters into the consciousness of the teacher -- the
consciousness that he would would be having if he were in his
higher state of consciousness.  

Now when he is in that state of consciousness he enters into the 
consciousness of his teacher -- who enters into the consciousness
of his teacher -- and so the consciousness of all the Masters
Saints and Prophets comes through.

I'll give you an example of this,
It was my second retreat I think.
It was in Hydrobad.
I was sitting in the grave [crypt, or tomb] of this very Madzhub 
-- this very dervish that I was talking abbout -- the teacher of
the teacher of my father.
I was doing this retreat under the instructions of the grandson of
that dervish.
I was repeating the zikr for 40 days, and fasting -- and I was not
seeing anyone, of course-
Zt the end of the day he would pull me out of that grave [tomb], 

Of course the only reason why I accepted to go under his training,
was because he said, your teacher is Hazrat Inayat Khan, so you
just concentrate on him -- I'm just there as a monitor-

And then he said -- that is what establishes a connection:  that
when you're doing the zikr, you forget yourself and you enter into
the consciousness of your teacher doing the zikr.

So I forgot myself, and I was Hazrat Inayat Khan repeateing the
zikr.
And while I was repeating the zikr, I saw the teacher of Hazrat
Inayat Khan.   Because if I was in the consciousness of Hazrat
Inayat Khan, of course he was concentrating on his teacher.   And
as I got in the consciousness of the teacher of Hazrat Inayat
Khan, then I got in the consciousness of the teacher of the
teacher of Hazrat Inayat Khan, at whose grave I was sitting.  

And when I came out of the room -- the cell -- and he pulled me
out -- 

[So ok, this 'grave' was not a Western hole-in-the-ground, but an
Eastern tomb -- a small stone room -- ]

as I said -- he said, Vilayat -- and I  thought -- Vilayat, that's
strange -- familiar name -- and he looked at me and he said, You
saw him -- and I was in silence, I wasn't able to say it -- so he
could see on my face that I had seen his grandfather-

Well, that's an example of what I'm trying to say, that one gets
into the consciousness [ of one's teacher, and then can proceed up
the chain, the silsa. ]


I'd gone [only] that far, but one shouild be able to get further
and further into the consciousness of each one of the teachers,
and finally you get into the consciousness of the whole hierarchy
of Masters Saints and Prophets.  

And that's what happens to you on a retreat, you start seeing the
faces of wonderful beings -- it's incredible -- they just flash
upon you like that -- because you've established a connection.

So what I'm saying by that is that the real teacher will never
limit you to his consciousness.

And Hazrat Inayat Khan even says that evem more specifically when
he said that -- A teacher, a real teacher, can hoist you far
beyond his own consciousness -- he said, With one swing of his arm
he will hoist you well above his shoulders .

My 'cello teacher couldn't play the 'cello very well but
{TAPE TO136 SIDE B {200}}
he was the most wonderful teacher.
Actually he wasn't my 'cello teacher, he was a teacher who gave me
some lessons in 'cello.  He didn't play that well, but he could
teach wonderfully.

So -- this is as much as I can say for the moment about the
meaning of initiation.

One is in a maqam, one is in a certain state -- stage.

And you know how one get stuck in a stage, that one can't advance
any more.
Then you need something, some push, to get you further.  That's
why one ?takes? or ?needs?  initiation.

Initiation is a little bit like the alchemical process -- it's a
process of incubation -- like something is happening inside one,
but it hasn't manifested to view yet.  And it takes something to
trigger off all the forces that have been brewing inside you.  

So in a sense one could say that initiation is just that action
which brings all of the things that have been building up into
action.

So in a sense one could say that initiation is like passing a
threshold.
Every time one goes from one maqam to another, it's something
cosmic that happens to a person, whether there's an initiator
there or not-
It's what happens to a person when he's passed a threshhold.  It's
like a quantum leap.  All that's been preparing has all of a
sudden broken through

It's always accompanied by a crisis. Sometimes a crisis in one's
personal life, or a crisis in one's understanding.
And it's accompanied by a state of purification.
Perhaps one has to give up something that one was addicted to --
like cigarettes, for example.

Sometimes one goes through a test.
This is what I should have said when I was speaking about what the
teacher does to you -- he puts you to a test.    

As when the guide, the mountain guide tells you to swing your arm
over to that ledge. you're being put to a test.
You think, well, I can't do it, and he says, you can. And that's
the test.

The teacher puts you through a test.
He asks you to do something.
And you think, why does he ask me to do that, it's ridiculous, it
doesn't make sense.
It's not what you do that's important, it's the fact of your
trusting yourself to do it -- that's the important thing.
 So he might ask you to do something that really doesn't make
sense.  But you're judging it from the point of view of your
understanding.   And he has something else in view -- 
{ni-36}
He's trying to give you more courage -- 

And if you don't pass the test, well then maybe the teacher
shouldn't be upset, but he thinks,  -- what a pity.  
[TAPE TO136 SIDE B {250}}
{ni-36a}                           
{nie-10}


The teacher sees "what you would be if you could be what you
should be" 
Perhaps you don't see it yourself -- and he's trying to make you
realize that you could be it.  

He's trying to empower you, give you self-confidence, that you can
do it.  That's why he's putting you through a test.  

And so those who can't follow the test drop out.

Every true initiation is accompanied by a test.
Sometimes life itself is a test, the real guru is G_d -- the
Superguru -- who is planning all our lives in such a fantastic way
it's just incredible-- 
{ni-37}

The personal guru supplements that testing -- but life itself
tests you.  
But maybe he makes you conscious of the test -- that it is a test. 
Because otherwise one might not realize that it is a test.  

Then is there any action of the guru then in giving the
initiation, or isn't it something that just happens to you at a
certain moment, and there's a sudden change in your state.

The real teacher may just sense the moment when you have passed
through a change, a quantum leap, and will confirm  it in his
initiation.
That's at least one thing that the guru can do sometimes.
He confirms something that may have already happened.
 Or, when its happening that he sort of gives it -- its 'stamp', . 
so_to_speak.

On the other hand he may be the trigger, the catalyst, that sets
into motion and off a process of transformation which  had already
been incubating all that time.  

There are cases where this happens.
SWAMI MUKTANANDA speaks about  what his swami, NITIANADA did to
him just by his presence -- he triggered off something.  This was
already there in Muktananda, but all of a sudden the action of
guru was here quite important.  

But a lot of people come to a guru because they hope that the guru
will do it for them.  It doesn't work that way.  It worked in
Muktananda because it was already there.

So in several cases a guru can trigger off something that is
already in you.

But it doesn't depend just upon the guru.  
It depends upon that Click between the two of you -- that certain
'chemistry', I don't know how to call it -- which happens in the
connection of two beings at a very high level.   

And that level is something like what we experienced this morning
-- something happens.  
And everything which has been preparing for itself breaks through
at that moment.  And then the initiation is a very traumatic
event.
{ni-38}  


Now remember that we are trying to do on the earth what is
happening in the heavens.

Our different grades and so on  
{ni-39}
are a reflection on the earth of the way things are at the soul
level. 
 
Bot what we do on earth is very imperfect.  
That applies in particular to the grades which chapter leaders
assign to pupils.

{TAPE TO136 SIDE B [300}}
I can very well understand why some people said that if Murshid
had come back from India, he would have abolished all the grades.
{ni-40}

And sometimes I feel very much like doing it.
[PVK is laughing as he says this.}
So then I'd have to apply it to myself, so I'd be Mr. Khan.
{ni-41}
                                         
It might happen -- doing away with all the robes -- and the beard,
and everything else -- like KRISHNAMURTI .

 Well, that's a way of doing things, but it doesn't ring true. 
Because everyone is in a certain place in the whole scheme of
things.  

One mustn't think of it in terms of superiority and inferitority. 
It's a question of the ammount of responsiblity that one takes on. 
Some people would rather not [ typo in Verbatim, omitted 'not']
have so much responsibility.  And others are just made to take
responsibility.  

I think the term 'grade' is misleading.  It's more like a
certificate of proficiency [than like a rank]. 
    
And the word 'Master' also.
I think you can use the word in the sense of like 'a master
baker', or a 'master mechanic'.  In the old days they used that
word in Trades [Guilds ]. 

An initiation can be given without the actual presence of the
person, if one is really reaching a person at a distance. 
{ni-42}

So -- let's "give to Ceasar what belongs to Caesar, and give to
G_d what belongs to G_d"
{ni-43} 

Never lose sight of the real thing.  Nobody can take away what
your are.
{ni-44} 

And nobody can make you what you're not.  
People can ascribe to you all kinds of grades, but you are what
you are.  
{ni-45} 

And nobody cam sit in a place which is not his for very long --
somebody will try to knock you off it.
{ni-46} 

When we are in our highest consciousness, we are the Divine
reality.
And we may fall back into our lowest consciousness.  So then we
are only a very small and inadequate fraction of the reality.
{TAPE TO136 SIDE B {350}}

{SOUNDS LIKE THE END OF THE LECTURE}                     
{YUP, RECKON IT WAS THE END OF THE LECTURE}
{PASS 2 COMPLETED, PROOF-READ AGAINST TAPE}
{FLYING EDIT COMPLETED, IF I DON'T LOOK BACK.}
================================================================

sa, Campra, 14 March '05, 4 Adar Bet.  "Be Happy, It's Adar"
Daytime sun slowly melting the snow.  Nico Vanzetti says it will
last for langlauf ski-ing through March in this shady valley.
Evening news reports arson of the Lugano synagogue, where I had
planned to go again for Purim.  
I don't thing it was anyone from Ticino, and probably not anyone
from Switzerland.  And I don't think it was anyone Islamic.

================================================================

ADDITIONAL NOTES FROM FLYING EDIT APPENDED to =pvoto136

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