Interview With Former Political Prisoner Joseba Uranga Gastesi

Interview by Manfred Ostrowski

"The Abertzale Left Has A Great Future"

I am Joseba Uranga Gastesi, born in Tolosa, Gipuzkoa on January
26, 1964. On January 19, 1984, I was arrested by the Civil Guard
in my native village, for being a member of ETA; and on March 10,
1998, I was released by the state after having been though a
number of prisons - Carabanchel, Alcala-Meco, Herrera de la
Mancha, Sevilla II, Granada and El Puerto de Santa Maria II. I am
now living in Tolosa, the village where I was born, and perhaps
soon I'll move in with my girlfriend Leire to a small apartment. 

The Situation Of The Basque Political Prisoners And Solidarity
With The Prisoners

Q: What would you like to say about the time you spent in prison?

     It was really hard. The cruelty of the enemy has surpassed
all standards, especially after the policy of dispersion was put
into force, and this had terrible effects on the political
prisoners; considerable physical and psychological effects.
Notwithstanding, during a long time spent in prison I had the
opportunity to meet good people; worthy people. It goes without
saying that the liberation struggle - in the streets, in the
prisons - also has some positive experiences which I carry with
me. One must take into account that torture is not applied in
prison, but when you are in police custody. In the prisons,
ill-treatment (beatings etc.) are a normal thing for the ordinary
prisoner as well as for the political, but this has to be
understood as a revenge; a revenge carried out by the warders.
This is made evident, for example, by the reports of
ill-treatment that we hear after an ETA action.

Q: What media did you have access to?

     Before dispersion started, every week we used to read the
newspapers and magazines from previous days. Later, they did not
even allow us to receive EGIN, and many years passed before we
were guaranteed, more or less, the right to information.
Nowadays, each prison uses its own criteria. Generally, EGIN
comes in without problem. But not the media the state considers
to be "dangerous". And almost anything could be labelled
dangerous.

Q: How is the prisoner resistance today?

     Prisoner resistance takes place now in a wider context.
Taken into consideration that a prisoner in isolation cannot do
much against dispersion, the Abertzale Left long ago decided to
open the prison front and, consequently, take it from inside the
prison walls into the streets. So, the duty to face prison is not
only in the hands of the prisoners; resistance takes place in all
areas where the Abertzale Left is present. Inside, the prisoners
go on hunger strikes, lock-ups, stoppages, and do what they can
according to the possibilities available to them. Outside,
resistance is proposed to every level according to the activities
of each organization, and every member of the Abertzale Left
[Basque nationalist left].

Q: What value has the solidarity for the Basque prisoners?

     It has an enormous value, since solidarity is conveyed in
two ways. On the one hand, it is conveyed in human terms and, on
the other, as a political expression. No matter how you look at
it, the Basque prisoners are political prisoners. Solidarity has
made possible, for example, the achievement of many things in the
prison; for example, and this is no small achievement, that being
in a critical situation, the pressure from the street has been
able to repel repression. Solidarity has improved situations.
Besides, the prisoners appreciate all the initiatives
whole-heartedly the solidarity, which is conveyed in the two ways
mentioned.

Q: Which is the way for bringing the prisoners back to the Euskal
Herria?

     All ways. The precarious situation of the prisoners does not
allow any pseudo-solutions or proposals. In this sense, it seems
to me that all proposals to bring back the prisoners to Euskal
Herria are legitimate, although I don't identify myself too much
with some of them. But it is clear that popular pressure will
bring back the prisoners and, therefore, I consider very
important the initiatives put forward by the people united by the
wish to bring the prisoners to Euskal Herria. There we find
platforms, committees, etc., each one working in its own way. But
as I have said, it must be people's imagination what will decide
the road to follow.

Q: Can the Basque conflict come to an end without amnesty? Is the
Basque nationalist left looking for ways to achieve amnesty?

     No. Amnesty does not suppose the mere release of the
prisoners, but a good solution to the problems that brought
people to prison. In the road to political negotiation, the issue
of amnesty is a point to be agreed by ETA and the Spanish state.
Once the prisoners and refugees are freed, it will be possible to
develop a popular debate in freedom and with all the democratic
guarantees. On the other hand, the Abertzale Left is not looking
for an opportunity to get the prisoners out. If they are freed,
fine! But the prisoners themselves in many occasions have said
that their liberation would be the consequence of a negotiating
process and thus, not to think that the political conflict would
be overcome with the release of the prisoners. The state in 1977
granted amnesty but after a very short period of time, the
prisons began to get filled again with new militants. The
prisoners, as members of the Abertzale Left, are in agreement
with this objective.

Basque Socialism And Participatory Democracy: Attainable Aims Or
A Mere Dream?

Q: If the Basque people were given the option to choose a
socialist mode, would they choose it?

     Yes, but it doesn't seem to me very appropriate to make the
offer in this way. Nowhere has the people adopted socialism
through an election - the case of Allende did not happen like
that - but through a revolution, through a struggle. People can
choose the struggle and although much could be said about this,
the level of struggle in Euskal Herria offers good perspectives.

Q: What socialist model is being proposed in the Abertzale Left,
beyond participatory democracy? 

     It seems to me useless to propose models since every nation
would have to create its own. History changes, every day we are
faced with new emerging elements and, therefore, it would be
absurd to start working on an enclosed model. Time will tell us
which road to follow; which road to choose. Then we all will be
talking about "the Basque model" as well as "the Basque models".

Q: Do you think that Herri Batasuna (HB) some day will give up
its proposal for a participatory democracy in order to, for
example, achieve peace or facilitate cooperation with the Basque
Nationalist Party (EAJ)?

     No. To do that would be nonsense politics because the ideas
that unite the people in the Abertzale Left are very sound and,
in this sense, there are certain points which we have very clear,
among them, a distrust in formal politics. In my opinion, Herri
Batasuna has to work out to the maximum the cooperation with EAJ
but using reason, that is, adapting itself to the variable
moments and occasions but always without losing its own identity.

Q: Regarding participatory democracy, do you think there are
enough possibilities to spread this great idea? Does a majority
in the Euskal Herria knows what this concept means?

     This is relative. Most media will never help us to spread
the idea therefore, it is difficult to reach people massively. In
any case, the Abertzale Left learned long time ago that actions
are much better than the projection of the ideology; rather than
getting lost talking about the ideology. We will continue as we
have, since it is our best method of expression. And the
political pedagogy cannot be anything but the same. With words
and with actions, but specially with actions, we have the lead.

The Basque Conflict And The Political Possibilities For Herri
Batasuna

Q: What importance have the relations between Herri Batasuna and
the Basque labour unions?

     They are very important. Definitely, the political isolation
that the Spanish state wants to impose on us has been broken by
some specific problems - the prisoners, etc. - and besides this,
it is clear that cooperation among leftist organizations is
totally necessary in order to challenge an imposing neo-
liberalism; all this always within the dynamics of a national
struggle. Those relations have to be solid and I am sure that
Herri Batasuna would make efforts to move them forward in the
right direction.

Q: How would you define the 'third political space', and how
would you judge or value this third space?

     In recent years, many people in Euskal Herria have walked
away from petty political quarrels and divisions and joined the
struggle against specific problems. On the one hand, this. On the
other hand, a wide sector emerged with people coming from two
sides: there are people in the Basque nationalist left who after
many years of struggle have sunk into despair who are nationalist
and in the Left and Basque nationalists and left-wingers who have
sunk in despair, and also there are many people close to the pact
of Ajuria Enea (the anti-terrorism pact of the political parties
in Bascongadas] who do not believe anymore in a military
solution. In any case, the "third space" appears to be
unstructured, but it seems that the majority are nationalists and
in the Left and that, therefore, see the necessity to have a
political negotiation for overcoming the violent parameters of
the conflict.

Q: Do you think unity among the Basque nationalist parties EA,
EAJ and HB, and a common line of work, would ever be able to
function well?

     As I said before, we only value actions. Until now, EAJ and
EA have not made clear what is that they want. They may say nice
things once in a while. But in practice, time after time, they
obey Spanish nationalism at different levels which are
fundamental to our homeland: Euskara [Basque language],
education, infrastructures... When they show more than the will
to act, and go from words to action then EAJ and EA will gain, as
political parties, legitimacy before the Abertzale Left. Time
will tell us.

Q: Do you think Herri Batasuna in the future could reach an
agreement with the United Left [Spain's Izquierda Unida] in
Euskal Herria so that together could demand the right to
self-determination and promote a project of the Left?

     Yes, but for this to happen, the United Left would have to
keep a more positive attitude regarding the conflict, especially,
to be able to join in the construction of the Basque nation from
a Basque perspective. So far they have demonstrated their
submission to Madrid, ideologically and politically. For the time
being, it is very difficult to think of any kind of agreement.
But in any case, the Abertzale Left always, and specially now,
has called on people who support a negotiated solution to the
conflict, to join in and work together for this. The United Left
can have its place in this task... but it is in their hands.

Q: Can you imagine the independence of Euskal Herria without
Navarre? What do you prefer, independence without Navarre or the
unity of Bascongadas and Nafarroa without independence? 

     It is very, very difficult for me to speak of Basque
independence without Nafarroa. In order for this to happen, the
Navarrese would have to decide to go by themselves, claiming to
be different from the rest of the Basques and this today is
unthinkable since none of us have the right to
self-determination. And it is clear that I prefer Euskal Herria
totally independent. The other possibilities do not seem to me
appropriate.

New Forms Of Struggle And The Future Of Armed Struggle

Q: In many people's opinion, the Abertzale Left cannot achieve
victory through ETA's armed struggle, but through sensible and
skilful politics. How do you see the future of ETA's armed
struggle? 

     I am not a member of ETA and, therefore, I cannot know the
analysis that the organization is making towards the future. In
any case, any analyst could see that the military actions of ETA
are impregnated with a political content. In fact, it takes
responsibility for all of its actions through documents
impregnated with politics. And the political credibility that ETA
has achieved in Euskal Herria cannot be denied, a fact that is
accepted by its most virulent enemy. In facing the future, ETA,
in my opinion, should investigate how the politico-military
strategy can be understood today by Basque society, beginning
with the political line established by the report of the 'KAS
Bloke Gidaria' [the coordinator of the Basque national liberation
movement]. In any case, ETA, through its Democratic Alternative,
made very clear that if the conditions for a truce were given, it
would give up armed struggle. And taken into consideration that
ETA leaves to the Basque people the final decision in a
democratic process, it can be said that ETA will do what Euskal
Herria, with words and actions but necessarily in freedom, tells
it to do.

Q: Do you think ETA is the most important part of the Abertzale
Left?

     Historically, the Abertzale Left has been structured around
ETA and also, the harshness of the struggle has created very deep
affectionate relations with the collective subject that ETA
supposedly represents. But the Abertzale Left is much more, much
more than ETA, and I am sure that given the moment, ETA would
know how to make its contributions through organizations totally
political. Being that independence and socialism are the axes of
the Abertzale Left movement, the structures of the movement are
the instruments. And of course, ETA itself cannot be more than
that.

Q: ETA tries to kill its opponents and the Spanish nationalists
can ask for "the unity of all democrats against violence" without
greater difficulties. Being that money the most important thing
(in Spain and in the entire world) why, in your opinion, has ETA
never attacked important economic targets in order to cause the
state greater economic losses?

     In my opinion, ETA has worked for many years mainly against
repression. Along with this, it has hit directly and with great
strength the juridical and political structures of the state.
Besides that it would be difficult to achieve and maintain an
infrastructure capable of creating material losses, in my
opinion, ETA has set aside the economy because it thinks it was
more important to hit other targets rather than the economy,
which is also important may result more abstract to people.
Although ETA does not touch economic targets, knowing how
important these are, is the result of its own analysis of the
process, and perhaps it thinks these are targets for another
phase; an interpretation of its politico-military direction.

Q: What can we learn from the Irish peace process, if Basques
nationalists want to demand the right to self-determination, and
wish to free Euskal Herria from the repressive forces? 

     There are many things that can be learned but, in summary, I
would like to mention the following: first, that armed struggle,
along with other forms of struggle, can change the
juridical-political structures; second, that a truce is not a
condition to begin a process of negotiations; third, that a
political agreement on minimum criterion is necessary between the
political parties and all Abertzale forces [nationalist forces]
to build strength for dealing with the central powers; and
finally, to make this brief, that peace can be achieved even when
all appears gloomy, as long as there is the will to go for it.

Q: What possibilities do you see for the Abertzale Left if it
would make use of new forms of struggle? In the fight for
independence and socialism, which new forms of struggle you would
like to see are employed?

     Without any doubt, what I would like the most is to develop
a struggle without bloodshed. You should take into account that
the political, cultural, social, economic initiatives and
activities of the Abertzale Left are by far richer than a mere
projection of ETA's politico-military activities. In daily life,
the Abertzale Left employs a lot of non-violent means of struggle
- in the streets, through the institutions, in enterprises and
factories... And one also must take into account that we have a
great experience in organizing ourselves until we become a
driving force within the social dynamics. The Abertzale Left has
a great future; until now we practically have not worked on our
political project, because what we are proposing and cultivating
is the struggle for the fundamental rights of Euskal Herria. Our
turn will come when we have achieved the Democratic Alternative.

[Manfred Ostrowski, a German linguist and writer, interviewed
Joseba Uranga in Tolosa (Gipuzkoa) this summer.]

Euskal Herria Journal - August 20, 1998

(Source: Euskal Herria Journal - http://osis.ucsd.edu/~ehj)