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Session Start:

gentle: Gonzo is joining us tonight as our speaker on predictive astrology.

gentle: Gonzo, we will turn the floor over to you at this time.

Gonzo: OK, thanks, Gentle.

Sanna asked me to come deliver a reading on astrology. I selected the title "Astrology: An Approach to the Future". And, as at this point I have recently started to write the lessons for an e-mail course on predictive astrology. I thought what I could do is to present you here tonight the first couple of lessons from that course. The course will consist on 180 e-mail lessons one every day, for 6 months.

But the initial lessons try to convey the tenor of the whole course

The course enphasizes the astrological principles and doctrines that have direct import to predictive astrology as opposed to other types of astrology: esoteric, psychological, etc. which will not be emphasized at all. So, I will now go ahead to deliver to you the first one of these lessons.

Leah: I know we are supposed to keep our questions for last, but could you tell us what this course would cost to take, Gonzo?

Gonzo: I will do it in small chunks.

gentle: great

Gonzo: :-) We are going to be doing a lot of talking about astrology, so we might as well begin by defining the term "astrology".   There are many definitions around of astrology, but we want to be very critical here and adopt a definition that is both true and essential.  That is to say, a definition that leaves nothing essential out, and brings nothing non-essential in.

Definition # 01:   Astrology is the discipline that studies the correspondences between the events that come to happen in the world on the one hand, and the patterns of order in the changing state of the heavenly variables on the other.

Although simple, the above definition is essentially descriptive of the true nature of astrology. By heavenly variables here we mean the ever-changing positions of the heavenly bodies, of course.  A correspondence is a relation; and a relation is a correspondence.

In logics, binary relations are defined in terms of correspondences between the elements of 2 sets. In Definition #1 we are talking about a binary relation, because we are talking about correspondences between what happens in the world (set 1) and what happens in heavens (set 2).

Yet, nothing is being said yet about the TYPE of relation that exists between set 1, namely the set of all possible configurations of the heavenly variables, and set 2 which is the set of all possible events manifesting in the world.

Axioms are postulates whose truth value is taken for granted. We shall establish now Axiom #01 in the following terms:

ASTROLOGICAL AXIOM #01: There exist various classes of formulable correspondences between the patterns of order in the state of the heavenly variables on the one hand, and the quantitative and qualitative characteristics of the events that come to happen in the world, on the other.

Thus, the first astrological axiom paraphrases the simple definition of astrology we started with. An observer on Earth sees things happening around in the world: events occur in a particular way out of many more possibilities; entities come in and out of existence in a given plane, etc. on the one hand, and on the other, the same observer can discern many astronomical variables changing their positions and rates of motion in the firmament in such a way that their motions enter in and out of specific configurations and patterns of order and apparent chaos.

Seen from Earth, the directions to the positions of the heavenly bodies change, both because of the proper motions of these bodies, and because of the motions of our own planet that also alters the perspective with which we view these bodies.

Astronomy is the branch of science dealing with the study of the nature and motions of the different celestial objects.... But astronomy is unconcerned about any correlation linking the motions of the heavenly bodies with the way events develop in the world.

Astronomers do not see any connection whatsoever between a drop in the Dow Jones index and the cycles of the slower moving planets; nor they see any meaningful relation between the statistics of suicides in the human population and the cycles of the positions of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune.

Their discipline, astronomy, is not concerned with studying this type of correlations, which are of an astrological nature.   On the other hand, for us astrologers, these types of correlations are themselves the subject matter of our study.

Obviously, the astrologer must have at least a fair understanding of astronomy, to be able to interpret in astronomical terms the events occurring in the world all around us.

The astrology student must understand from the beginning that in order to be able to discern or to establish a correspondence between any trait or feature of reality around us and a particular heavenly configuration, it is necessary to know the state of heavens, at least in some measure.

That is why being initiated into astrology must signify that hence forth the student will always make a point to know how is heavens, or what's happening in heavens.  This is why the astrology student always must carry an Ephemeris, meaning a book where the position of the Sun, the Moon, and each of the other planets is listed for every day so we can see where the planets are all the time.

Although now we have modern software to present us ephemerical data, if you want to learn good astrology here, it is a must that you immediately acquire a good ephemeris for the 20th century in book form, and another one for at least the first 50 years of the coming century.

Being aware of how heavens change from day to day, makes it easy for us to perceive the connection between the changes in heavens and the changes in the world all around us, and this way we learn to see the world through the astrological categories, which eventually leads us to being able to PREDICT the future: imagine for example that I know that tomorrow the planet Mars will move out of the sector of the sky we call the sign of Aries into the sign of Taurus.

Because the astrological tradition teaches that in the first sign, Aries, the planet Mars has positive strength (we shall see that in this sign Mars has essential dignity of domicile or rulership, which is considered excellent) while in the second sign, Taurus, Mars has inherent weakness (tradition decrees that Mars in Taurus has the essential debility known as Detriment), I am then ready to expect that Mars going out of a sign where it is in good cosmic status and into a bad sign, shall correlate with some negative martian developments in the world around me.

Thus, astrology is norming my expectations about what may happen tomorrow: something bad may start happening having to do with Mars. What could it be?.

In general, I know that Mars has to do with activity, force, commencements, action involving tools or weapons, fire, iron, passionate expression, competitive behaviour, blood, violence or war, etc. which are but some of the traditional correlates that astrology associates with the planet Mars since time immemorial.

So all these correlates may have a lot to do with whatever bad development I am being lead to expect tomorrow because I know that transiting Mars (meaning the actual Mars out there in space) is coming out of a sign where it has positive dignity into a sign where it has negative debility.

In further lessons we shall see that BESIDES the natural correlates associated with Mars, like action, force, color red, sharp hard objects, heat and fire, cutting, piercing, etc., Mars may have additional "personal" correlates specifically for me, because of the Houses that Mars happens to rule plus the House it is in in my particular astral chart or map of heavens cast for the precise moment I was born.

Because whereas the position of Mars in a sign is there for everybody born around the time I was born given that at its average speed of 38 minutes of arc a day the planet Mars stays in one given sign for a bit over a month and a half, on the other hand the House that Mars is in at a particular time, changes more or less every 2 hours as it depends on the rotation of our own planet.

Of course we are going to be getting into greater detail later when we come to the study of the astrological Houses and how to interpret the relation they stand in with the signs. We are going to spend several lessons on the theme "The Planets in the Signs", and later on several more on "The Planets in the Houses", where you will learn to interpret in generic and specific terms the astrological implications of the position and cosmic state of the planets in an astral chart.

In this manner, by knowing the position of Mars, and the generic and specific correlates of this particular planet, I may derive insight into how things will be like tomorrow (or any other time I may wish to) in the world at large, and how all this will affect me in particular.

If I study the state of heavens tomorrow, in and by itself, I will be learning about how things will be like tomorrow in general. But if I compare the state of heavens tomorrow with the state of heavens when I was born, I will be interpreting the angular relations between the planets tomorrow and the planets when I was born to derive insight as to what is going to happen to me tomorrow and the sort of events that reality may present to my personal experience.

*** Gonzo has quit IRC (Read error to Gonzo[ppp05.unet.com.mx]: Connection reset by peer)

gentle: oops...we lost gonzo ...

gentle: I am logging the session....if anybody needs it [email protected]

Joyful: I am having problems staying on tonight too

*** Gonzo ([email protected]) has joined #bridge

gentle: wb gonzo

Gonzo: Sorry, major short circuit here brought by Uranus°

^Angel^9: wb Gonzo

Gonzo: I had seen I had some heavy aspects from uranus

CNH: aha, my question about uranus was pertinent

Triskana: Sure, blame it on Uranus! lol

Triskana: indeed CNH

Gonzo: and that's why I elected the best weekend in a bad month there was a shortcircuit in the regulator.

Gonzo: nothing I could do about it, sorry folks!

gentle: gonzo want to pick up where you left off?

Gonzo: yes, sure!

gentle: go for it. I am logging the lecture

Gonzo: fine

Gonzo: so i will continue...

gentle: :))

gentle: yes.

Gonzo: In this manner, by knowing the position of Mars, and the generic and specific correlates of this particular planet, I may derive insight into how things will be like tomorrow (or any other time I may wish to) in the world at large, and how all this will affect me in particular.

But if I compare the state of heavens tomorrow with the state of heavens when I was born, I will be interpreting the angular relations between the planets tomorrow and the planets when I was born to derive insight as to what is going to happen to me tomorrow and the sort of events that reality may present to my personal experience.

In [a later]class we will continue breaking ground around the definition of astrology that we have established today and the Astrological Axiom Number One; and move further to discuss the Astrological Axiom Number Two, to which we will also refer as the Axiom of Beginnings, because it states that the state of heavens at the moment something commences or starts to exist becomes totally deteminant of the actual fate of whatever entered into existence under such heavens.

The comments to Lesson 1 follow now

On lesson 01 we began by establishing an essential deffinition of astrology as the discipline that studies the correspondences between what happens in heavens on the one hand, and what happens in the world all around us on the other.

In phrasing this simple definition we dodged the issue of calling this "discipline" a science, but if we define science as objective intelectual knowledge of reality then it is clear that whatever else it may be, astrology is indeed a science.

Who ever takes the care to observe reality through the astrological categories immediately realizes the truth value of what we have called the Astrological Axiom Number One, which states that there exists indeed a point-to-point correspondence between the characteristics of the events that occur in the world all around on the one hand, and the patterns of order in the configuration of the heavenly variables on the other.

It may be other things too, like an art, a philosophy or even a religion, but given the empirical fact of the observable correspondence between the state of the firmament and what happens in the world, the intellect naturally wants to make sense of this correspondence and through the milennia, some of the best minds have made it their field of endeavor to make sense, through the rational mind, of this observable connection between heavens and the events that occur in the world.

Thus, it is at all lights true that astrology is not only a valid field of endeavor but, actually, an essential field of endeavour, in as much as no objective vision of reality can be truly complete if this fundamental fact of existence that in lesson 01 we labeled the Astrological Axiom Number One is ignored.

In time, the scientific establishment will appear as ashamed of having once excluded astrology from its curricula, as the Catholic Church appears retrograde now for having punished Galileo for stating that the Earth spins around every day.

In future commentaries we will analyze in detail the historical developments that explain how and why astrology came to be excluded from the halls of that temple of modern civilization called orthodox science, and from academic inquiry in all its forms, around the 17th and early 18th centuries.

In the West, astrology indeed fell then, from its ancient dignified status as a sacred science, to being regarded as nothing more that a superstitius lore devised to fool ignorant souls.

As a consequence of this debasement, the best minds were not anymore attracted to studying astrology, and a lot of the classical body of astrological tradition got lost, deteriorated or degenerated badly as it mixed with other esoteric pursuits of dubious repute, etc.

Later too, we will show how there is a formal analogy between the current state of astrological knowledge and the state physical science (natural philosophy) was in the times of Copernicus. Back then, in the 15th century, physics was still waiting for the rigor of Newton's mind to come and endow it with the proper mathematics enabling it to become the paradigm of a precise predictive science.

Astrology is thus as scientific nowdays as physics was some 500 years ago. That's why I always say that astrology is a science waiting for its Newton to come and endow it with the proper mathematics that will allow it to predict the future in precise quantitative terms. Meanwhile, we can only make do with what we have, and prepare the road for that genial mind who is bound to come and transform astrology into a quantitative discipline.

But all the time it has been equally easy for anybody willing to put the necessary effort, to gain personal conviction as to the existence of this ubiquitous spectrum of ordered relations connecting at every point all the codifiable features of manifest reality with the patterns of order described by the changing positions of the heavenly bodies.

All what the student has to do to be convinced of this constant connection between what exists and happens all around on the one hand and the state of the firmament's variables on the other, is to open the eyes and see reality through the lens of the astrological categories.....

..... and to know where the planets are all the time so as to be able to interpret the events of experience in terms of the relations formed by the heavenly bodies as they change their relative positions all the time. The stars do not move very fast as seen from Earth, because they all are so far away. In due time we shall study the role of fixed stars in astrology too.

At the beginning this means getting into the habit of consulting the ephemeris with sufficient frequency. Getting a good ephemeris is thus an urgent requirement for making the best of this course we are starting.

Gonzo: In modern astrology we call Transit Watching the accounting of some feature of reality or of the manifestation of some experienced event or development, in terms of the relevant planetary relations that astrologically explain them.

In ancient or classical astrology Transit Watching was not as central and all-important as it currently is in modern astrology. Many future lessons of this course are going to deal with teaching the student how to profit from this technique of transit watching to learn how to learn astrology by simply observing how things always happen in tune to the transiting aspects in effect at the time that the events develop or are experienced.

Transit watching is the most marvelous way of learning astrology by empirical observation.  To become an astrologer, the student must become good at interpreting events in terms of the planetary configurations under which they come to occur or to be experienced, and that's what transit watching is all about.

That is also why we have crated the ETPN (Ephemeris and Transits Numbered Posts) thread as part of the material that you will receive along with your daily lessons and with these comments to the daily lessons, to take you by the hand to where you can master the technique of accounting for reality in astrological terms, through transit watching, on a day-to-day basis.

graceful: who is youngest here besides me?

Tamarinde: why does age bother you graceful?

Tamarinde: i am as old as time..and as young as a heartbeat..

graceful: im wondering

graceful: okay?

Gonzo: that is why I prefer to apply astrology to predicting earthquakes, volcanoes, the stock exchange, etc...

gentle: graceful we have all ages around here

graceful: k

Sanna: Gonzo I know :) Well, that was my disagreement. I'm done ;)

Tamarinde: ahh.

daysi: we are ageless and timeless, sometimes

Tamarinde: so you like to predict solid elements..

Gonzo: the veil of Maya suffusses everything when you are talking about free will

Tamarinde: i was wondering about that..

Tamarinde: for.. you can see events in the future..

Tamarinde: i do it all the time..

Gonzo: a part of us seems to be so, eh Daysi?

Tamarinde: i just never know how to get into tomorrow.

Gonzo: yes

daysi: Life would be boring if we were happy all the time though.

Gonzo: The astrology student must tackle prediction of the weather before trying to predict complex psychological matters.

graceful: no

daysi: We have to have have something to compare stuff with.

graceful: do you guys talk to spirits or somthing?

Gonzo: beter happily bored than unhappily excited?

graceful: do you guys talk to spirits or somthing?

daysi: We all talk to spirits grace.

graceful: why?

Gonzo: Do you, graceful?

* Tamarinde smiles..

graceful: you should just belive in god!

helen_UMS: As one who knows relatively little about astrology from a technical perspective, I found your class to be quite interesting, Gonzo. Just scrolled through the entire text again...without interruption and distraction. You gave a good overview and introduction!

gentle: Gonzo, I think that a lot of us don't know much more about astrology than the popular books like Linda Goodmans etc.

graceful: you should just belive in god! Tamarinde: talking to ghosts in houses is one of the things i do..

Gonzo: thank you very much Helen!

graceful: is it scary?

Gonzo: my aim is to teach students to predict using astrology

Tamarinde: sometimes..

daysi: Of course not, grace.

graceful: is it scary?

Tamarinde: but..mostly its just dealing with left over emotions of those who lived there before..

graceful: Talk to me about it.

daysi: spirits are like air with consciousness

Tamarinde: hehe..

Gonzo: only after you are good at that it makes sense to apply astrology to more esoteric pursuits, Tamarinde: its like a record of emotions and feelings. graceful..replaying over and over.

Gonzo: like getting into other life times through astrology

helen_UMS: Yes, Gonzo. I am particularly interested in the predictive qualities for business use. That's an area of interest to me, but my approach uses different tools. Isn't there a Wall St. company now that uses astrology as their primary tool in predicting the market?

Tamarinde: you just have to get them to stop.. repeating themselves..

daysi: Gonzo, I think you are right. People have lots of stuff they add to the mix

Gonzo: First we have to learn to predict the immediate future through astrological technique

daysi: Must make it difficult to predict what people's lives will be like.

Gonzo: right, daysi!

helen_UMS: (trying to remember the name of the company)

gentle: well ken needs the phone, so I'm off....night you guys.

gentle: blessings

helen_UMS: Night, Gentle.

Gonzo: thanks a lot, gentle!

gentle: welcome gonzo....

gentle: night Hele...nice to meet you....HEY are you the Helen that Susanrose wrote us about?

helen_UMS: Yes, the same Helen.

gentle: Welcome to bridge....I'm looking forward to your talk....on #gaia..

Gonzo: night, gentle...

helen_UMS: Thanks. :-)

daysi: helen, what will you talk about?

gentle: welcome...night yall

helen_UMS: Gonzo, is your course run through Sirius, or some other school?

helen_UMS: The Millenium....just another day? ggg:

Gonzo: yes, the Sirius School of astrology...

helen_UMS: Where is your location. I think I read you have a web site too. Would you mind printing it again now?

daysi: Helen, we need all the opportunities we can get for celebrations or grieving we can get.

Sanna: oops...

Gonzo: there are articles written by me, on predictive technique,

Gonzo: in varius places in the net

Gonzo: a very long one is in The Zodiacal Zephyr

Gonzo: that long article is on the prediction of death from the birth chart.

helen_UMS: Exactly, Daysi. It's an opportunity to take inventory and shape the future. OK,

Gonzo, I'll look your school up.

Gonzo: Other long articles by me are at WebFest

Gonzo: a site limked to the Festival list of astrologers...

helen_UMS: Fascinating. And how/where does free will alter the chart, or vice versa?

Gonzo: Free will is also in the chart.

Ana: enjoy folks...Source be with you...night all.

daysi: helen, when will you be on gaia?

Gonzo: one of the reasons for wanting to know the future

Gonzo: is to be in a condition of modifying it.

Gonzo: How can you modify what you don't know is going to happen?

helen_UMS: 'Night, Ana.

helen_UMS: On Gaia Feb 28th, 9 PM EST.

Gonzo: So first you ought to know in advance what is going to happen...

Gonzo: and then you may be able to do something about it.

Sanna: what if an astrologer is wrong? =)

Gonzo: Imagine a meteorite is going to impact Earth, for example...

daysi: Gonzo, thanks for believing we can change what is predicted to happen

helen_UMS: I see, Gonzo. So if the will changes, what happens to the chart? There are some biologists who claim that choice and adaptation actually change genetic structure. Is it possible to change one's chart?

Gonzo: Oh, sure, we can change things!

Gonzo: though sometimes it is not easy!

daysi: Hi basil!!

basil: hey

Gonzo: I consult with clients every day and have been doing it for years, and many times the person cannot change fate...

Tamarinde: yeah.

Gonzo: fate is a default

Tamarinde: if they know what events lead up to that ..they may be able to.

Gonzo: it will happen if you don't do anything about it

Tamarinde: but..they do not.

helen_UMS: So there is such a thing as "fate," then?

Tamarinde: yes..i believe firmly there is.

Gonzo: but you have to click here and there to change a default...

Tamarinde: its like going to an intersection.

helen_UMS: Ah, that sounds better: fate as the default value, rather than the absolute.

Tamarinde: you have choices to make..then..what happens after that..is fate.

basil: The stars predict propensities, not fate.

helen_UMS: Exactly!

Gonzo: yes, definitely, things are predetermined to happen in certain ways all the time.

Gonzo: that is the default fate

helen_UMS: I think of that as a blueprint which shapes, but offers many ways to complete and alter design.

Gonzo: to the question of what if the astrologer is wrong

Tamarinde: you have choices..but..the result of your choices is fate.

Gonzo: well, what if the surgeon makes a mistake?

CNH: predetermined by whom?

helen_UMS: Wow, Tamarinde, that doesn't leave much room for human creativity and intervention!

Sanna: then he makes a mistake. It can be serious or not so serious.

basil: Nothing is predetermined. The outcome becomes known when it is manifest.

Sanna: I wonder how many *accurate* astrologers there are.

Gonzo: predetermined by the fact that the whole universe at a particular moment is in a particular state, from all possible states...

Tamarinde: well..not so.

Tamarinde: for how many intersections will you have..

CNH: gonzo, that is a non answer

Tamarinde: how may choices will you make.

Gonzo: that sets the default of what happens in any point in the universe at any particular time.

Gonzo: well, CNH, things could be very grave sometimes: if the surgeon makes a mistake, it is as bad as when the astrologer makes a mistake.

CNH: you say things are predetermined. that implies an action on the part of someone/something. to say its predetermined because what is, is, begs the question

Gonzo: could you repeat your question tamarinde?

PWest: if you have to ask questions you don't know

Gonzo: No, CNH, astrology is the rules that tell you what the default fate is, then it is up to you what you do with that knowledge.

Tamarinde: how do you know how to get from today into tomorrow.

graceful: hi

CNH: Then it is not predetermined?

Tamarinde: see..if i have free choice.. and you say i do.. and everyone around me does..